Super Victor port matching

[rmchrgr]

To these heads. (BPE) Intake ports are 2 1/2" tall and a few thousandths wider than standard gasket opening size. Gaskets hung over the roof and floor too much to leave alone. Looking down the runner through the plenum things line up much better now.

So (thankfully) this is an older Super Victor without the injector bosses. I am also happy to report that my cool-guy reverse-lip valve covers appear to fit. The previous owner painted it 273 red which eventually will be gone. He told me it fit under his flat hood. We'll see I guess.

At some point prior to my ownership it had been gasket matched by Hughes. It was a pretty nice job and I did feel a bit bummed about going over their work but what can you do. Someone told me their porter retired and they don't do it any more.

Overall, I'm OK with it. Couple flubs here and there but no catastrophic damage. My goal was to avoid bell-mouthing the openings as best as I could but easier said than done. No plenum work save for lightly smoothing a casting line under the carb flange. No other plenum work is planned for now.

It's not perfect but you get the idea. The sanding rolls help me see the final shape a little better but I know a lot of people like a burr finish these days. For what it's worth, Hughes used sanding rolls but I'm guessing they probably did this job more than 10 years ago. The dividers look wavy in these pics but they are not.

I definitely have some hours into this intake but it feels like I've spent more time trying to cut the gaskets out to the right size cleanly.

-Greg

 

[fishmens67]

Nice work

 

[GTX JOHN]

Looks good!

I set up a table in the bathroom and trim
the gaskets in there.

Otherwise, I am always in to big a hurry and rush thru
and screw up the center dividers to many times (End up being
very skinny).

I have plenty of time while sitting there!

 

[Plymouth 65]

Nice work, as stated, dividers look great. 65

 

[rmchrgr]

Thanks all.

To be honest, I learned what not to do previously by destroying a perfectly good Victor 340. I tried to do too much to it and it got away from me pretty quick. That one is not savable, trust me. (see below) The Victor is a good intake but it's too short for my particular application anyway which is why I had to go with the S.V. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that until the damage was already done. Chalk it up to a learning experience I guess.

I'm almost embarrassed to post this... pour some beer on the curb before you take a swig for this one...

This time I went easy with the grinder and kept the speed lower which was a major epiphany. Slowing things down prevented gouging out low spots which in turn eliminates having to even things out to the lowest point. I've learned that's exactly where things get out of control and you start going beyond whats useful. The job actually went much quicker this time as well since I wasn't covering up mistakes. Sounds corny but sometimes you have to fail to succeed.

Going slow also helped when creeping up on the scribe lines. At the very edge I used small hand files to keep the shapes on the lines. There was a lot of material to remove behind the surface opening so it can get a little dicey around the edges if you're not paying attention.

To start, the overall shape was roughed in with a conical burr then I'd switch to a straight one to remove material behind it. Whether that's the correct method or not I don't know but it worked for me. I am using aluminum-specific burrs I got from Summit.

Roughing in the shapes. I leaned the tip back to get closer to the line but stopped short of it. Pay attention here because if you go too far it's toast. That raised lip enables you to see how much material needs to be removed behind the edge. Have to blend it a couple inches in to retain a smooth taper to the larger opening.

I used a small hand file to get the bottom edge sharp. That's almost .125" to grind away. Don't get carried away though.

This is the burr I used for general material removal.

I also have this cartridge roll kit for smoothing the surfaces. They give you a mandrel in the kit which is cool. I have a longer one too but it's a bit awkward.

To be clear, I spent way more time this go round making sure the port shapes were as accurate as possible - garbage in, garbage out as they say and that was certainly the case on my last intake porting attempt. Transferring the shapes from the head to the intake was probably the most tedious/difficult part of this job. I didn't want to do the dowel pin thing (drill a hole through the intake into the head and insert a dowel to lock the locations exactly before marking anything) so there is still likely going to be some slight mismatch but it's way better than it would have been had it been left alone.

Essentially, I made a pencil rubbing of the head port shapes and locations with poster board. Rubbing the paper with your finger causes the shapes to get embossed nicely into the paper and I was able to cut them out with a really sharp Xacto knife. Once the shapes were cut, the paper was transferred to the intake and the cutouts were traced onto the intake flange using measurements from the heads and scribed lines for reference. Again, I'm not sure if this is the right way to do this job but it worked OK for me. You can't see anything with the intake bolted on so this is as close a physical representation as you can get.

Arts and crafts.

Embossing.

Template.

Tools of the trade. It takes a steady hand...

Perhaps this inspires others to try this out for themselves. If you go slow it's not a big deal and does not take that long. Working the plenum is a differnt story but port matching is probably the best place to start anyway. The tooling investment is not that much, just need a die grinder and the desire to do it.

I used my old air grinder here but I do have an old Du-More jewelery grinder which is a nice tool. (got the idea from John/PBR) Mine's just INOP right now becaue for the life of me I can't find the correct carbon brush for it.

More comments/suggestions welcome.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Thanks all.

To be honest, I learned what not to do previously by destroying a perfectly good Victor 340. I tried to do too much to it and it got away from me pretty quick. That one is not savable, trust me. (see below) The Victor is a good intake but it's too short for my particular application anyway which is why I had to go with the S.V. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that until the damage was already done. Chalk it up to a learning experience I guess.

I'm almost embarrassed to post this... pour some beer on the curb before you take a swig for this one...
View attachment 1716308989

This time I went easy with the grinder and kept the speed lower which was a major epiphany. Slowing things down prevented gouging out low spots which in turn eliminates having to even things out to the lowest point. I've learned that's exactly where things get out of control and you start going beyond whats useful. The job actually went much quicker this time as well since I wasn't covering up mistakes. Sounds corny but sometimes you have to fail to succeed.

Going slow also helped when creeping up on the scribe lines. At the very edge I used small hand files to keep the shapes on the lines. There was a lot of material to remove behind the surface opening so it can get a little dicey around the edges if you're not paying attention.

To start, the overall shape was roughed in with a conical burr then I'd switch to a straight one to remove material behind it. Whether that's the correct method or not I don't know but it worked for me. I am using aluminum-specific burrs I got from Summit.

Roughing in the shapes. I leaned the tip back to get closer to the line but stopped short of it. Pay attention here because if you go too far it's toast. That raised lip enables you to see how much material needs to be removed behind the edge. Have to blend it a couple inches in to retain a smooth taper to the larger opening.
View attachment 1716308991

I used a small hand file to get the bottom edge sharp. That's almost .125" to grind away. Don't get carried away though.
View attachment 1716308995

This is the burr I used for general material removal.
View attachment 1716308992

I also have this cartridge roll kit for smoothing the surfaces. They give you a mandrel in the kit which is cool. I have a longer one too but it's a bit awkward.

To be clear, I spent way more time this go round making sure the port shapes were as accurate as possible - garbage in, garbage out as they say and that was certainly the case on my last intake porting attempt. Transferring the shapes from the head to the intake was probably the most tedious/difficult part of this job. I didn't want to do the dowel pin thing (drill a hole through the intake into the head and insert a dowel to lock the locations exactly before marking anything) so there is still likely going to be some slight mismatch but it's way better than it would have been had it been left alone.

Essentially, I made a pencil rubbing of the head port shapes and locations with poster board. Rubbing the paper with your finger causes the shapes to get embossed nicely into the paper and I was able to cut them out with a really sharp Xacto knife. Once the shapes were cut, the paper was transferred to the intake and the cutouts were traced onto the intake flange using measurements from the heads and scribed lines for reference. Again, I'm not sure if this is the right way to do this job but it worked OK for me. You can't see anything with the intake bolted on so this is as close a physical representation as you can get.

Arts and crafts.
View attachment 1716308998

Embossing.
View attachment 1716308999
Template.
View attachment 1716309000
Tools of the trade. It takes a steady hand...
View attachment 1716309001

Perhaps this inspires others to try this out for themselves. If you go slow it's not a big deal and does not take that long. Working the plenum is a differnt story but port matching is probably the best place to start anyway. The tooling investment is not that much, just need a die grinder and the desire to do it.

I used my old air grinder here but I do have an old Du-More jewelery grinder which is a nice tool. (got the idea from John/PBR) Mine's just INOP right now becaue for the life of me I can't find the correct carbon brush for it.

More comments/suggestions welcome.

That intake is easy fixed. Don’t scrap it.

BTW, you work us better than 85% of the stuff I see.

Very nice work.

 

[rmchrgr]

That intake is easy fixed. Don’t scrap it.

BTW, you work us better than 85% of the stuff I see.

Very nice work.

Thanks.

The Victor can be welded or epoxied for sure but the Victor was not right for my application anyway so it wasn't worth the expense or effort. The whole intake is really uneven especially up into the runners. I knife-edged the dividers and they ended up getting wavy so it's not just the one part, it's the whole thing. Maybe I'll try it as an extra-credit exercise some rainy day. I do have an aluminum spool gun that came with my welder but I have yet to use it. It would need to be surfaced after welding so it can get a little involved.

I researched A-B epoxy (Splash Zone, Moroso, etc.) a bunch before I got the S.V. thinking that might be the way to fix it. From what I read, it needs to be pinned to the surface to prevent it from breaking off and you have to be really diligent in how you apply it. If you coat it with sealer it lasts longer when it gets exposed to alcohol in modern gas. I know the epoxy works but it does seem like there a lot of caveats to it.

 

[jbc426]

Nice photos on these threads. I have Edelbrock's single-plane intake with the EFI bosses cast into it on my 440 RB motor.

Before sending it to Wilson's for their Intermediate port job, I had to have both intake surfaces cut to lower the manifold towards the crank. This was so the floor of the ports was almost perfectly even with the bottom of the intake runner floor before porting. I heard that no one ever mad more power by cutting the floor of the port.

I also have hood clearance issues, so fly-cutting the carburetor flange a 1/4" or more is an option to allow for more hood clearance.

ps, The Wilson porting looks like jewelry. I don't know how they do it so well.

 

[rmchrgr]

Nice photos on these threads.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I try to compose them as best as I can, it's not that easy.

The Wilson porting looks like jewelry. I don't know how they do it so well.

I called Wilson and filled out their inquiry form but that's as far as it went. I was prepared to hear a high price but it was literally triple what I thought it would be. Honest to god, to have them do a manifold for me it would have cost me more than I paid for my cylinder heads.

I get it - they are arguably the best at what they do and from what I could glean from talking to them, there is a lot of custom work involved in their process. The potential HP gain-to-dollars-spent is not realistic in this case though. It's just not worth spending that much on an off-the-shelf intake manifold for an engine like this.

Fixing the Victor would have taken them several hours to weld and re-shape and most likely it would have had to have been cut in half to equalize the ports. The alternative they suggested was to cut apart a SBC intake and adapt it to fit. I'm not opposed to the idea because it's not that far fetched but again, I just don't see the need to do all that when I can just go with a Super Victor. if I was running in some kind of unlimited class and needed every last bit of power from a particular intake then maybe but if that was the case I wouldn't be running a Victor 340 anyway.

 

[rmchrgr]

Just to put a bow on this, this is the port lineup now looking down the plenum from either side. This is basically what I was trying to achieve and I'm good with it. The blue is Dykem on the passenger side head, the pink is the gasket. (Superformance) Again, cutting these gaskets sucks. Maybe the Fel Pro would be easier.

As you can see from this angle, some of the runner floors still have a bit of a hump right before the port openings which I'm going to leave alone. I think that's partially the design of the intake and there isn't much I can do with it. There's no real obstruction to flow, just slightly variying volumes between the runners. I'm not sure eliminating those humps would show up on a time slip anyway.

I suppose that might be the difference between a shade tree job and a Wilson piece; they probably look at it like this a bunch of times and do what they can to get those angles to match up better. They also measure with inside mics at various points to get the runners exactly the same size. Measuring mine from the outside with the caliper jaws it looks like they vary several thousandths between all 8. I'm done grinding so is what it is.

This is #5.

#4.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Just to put a bow on this, this is the port lineup now looking down the plenum from either side. This is basically what I was trying to achieve and I'm good with it. The blue is Dykem on the passenger side head, the pink is the gasket. (Superformance) Again, cutting these gaskets sucks. Maybe the Fel Pro would be easier.

As you can see from this angle, some of the runner floors still have a bit of a hump right before the port openings which I'm going to leave alone. I think that's partially the design of the intake and there isn't much I can do with it. There's no real obstruction to flow, just slightly variying volumes between the runners. I'm not sure eliminating those humps would show up on a time slip anyway.

I suppose that might be the difference between a shade tree job and a Wilson piece; they probably look at it like this a bunch of times and do what they can to get those angles to match up better. They also measure with inside mics at various points to get the runners exactly the same size. Measuring mine from the outside with the caliper jaws it looks like they vary several thousandths between all 8. I'm done grinding so is what it is.

This is #5.
View attachment 1716309070

#4.
View attachment 1716309071

Very nice!!!

 

[rmchrgr]

Very nice!!!

Thanks Turk! The Pie Wagon probably could've used some port matching.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Thanks Turk! The Pie Wagon probably could've used some port matching.

VOOOOOOOOOOOLARE…!!!

 

[mopowers]

I called Wilson and filled out their inquiry form but that's as far as it went. I was prepared to hear a high price but it was literally triple what I thought it would be. Honest to god, to have them do a manifold for me it would have cost me more than I paid for my cylinder heads.

Out of curiosity, what was their quote?

 

[B3422w5]

Just to put a bow on this, this is the port lineup now looking down the plenum from either side. This is basically what I was trying to achieve and I'm good with it. The blue is Dykem on the passenger side head, the pink is the gasket. (Superformance) Again, cutting these gaskets sucks. Maybe the Fel Pro would be easier.

As you can see from this angle, some of the runner floors still have a bit of a hump right before the port openings which I'm going to leave alone. I think that's partially the design of the intake and there isn't much I can do with it. There's no real obstruction to flow, just slightly variying volumes between the runners. I'm not sure eliminating those humps would show up on a time slip anyway.

I suppose that might be the difference between a shade tree job and a Wilson piece; they probably look at it like this a bunch of times and do what they can to get those angles to match up better. They also measure with inside mics at various points to get the runners exactly the same size. Measuring mine from the outside with the caliper jaws it looks like they vary several thousandths between all 8. I'm done grinding so is what it is.

This is #5.
View attachment 1716309070

#4.
View attachment 1716309071

I actually am using a Victor with my Bloomer heads. I had it ported before use. It isn’t optimal, just flat not enough meat at the top.
I too used superformance gaskets, and left the center dividers alone, as I was happy with them, did no trimming. Everything has held up well, no leaks, happy with everything. Been almost 2 seasons now
Several others guys are using the Victor I personally know.
That all said, I would prefer the super Victor if it was fully ported, but I had concerns with it fitting under my flat hood(69 Dart)

 

[rmchrgr]

Out of curiosity, what was their quote?

Their competition porting service starts at $2K though they do offer a less-involved 'intermediate' service for around $1,200. Of course they suggest the comp. service first!

Just realize that to get the best results with either choice you ship them your heads. Shipping a set of heads back and forth to Florida from CT would probably have cost me a couple hundred bucks. Hurts to think what that would cost from California.

Intake Manifold Porting | Wilson Manifolds

My particular quote with the competition porting was going to be way more than $2K though and in fact closer to $3K. I probably could have been fine with the intermediate job but either way $1,200 is still a ton of money to spend on an intake especially since that price did not include any repair labor.

They told me the butchered intake would need at least five hours of welding(!) first to fix it then add extra material on the tops of the runners so they could have enough room to do their thing. After that it was obvious I should just forget the Victor and get the S.V. I called the head builder and he confirmed the S.V. was the way to go. Found one the next day and here we are.

Based on every picture I've seen of Wilson's work there's no doubt it would have been a killer intake. I just couldn't justify spending that much for them to repair and modify an off-the-shelf manifold for a street/strip engine.

 

[rmchrgr]

I actually am using a Victor with my Bloomer heads. I had it ported before use. It isn’t optimal, just flat not enough meat at the top.
I too used superformance gaskets, and left the center dividers alone, as I was happy with them, did no trimming. Everything has held up well, no leaks, happy with everything. Been almost 2 seasons now
Several others guys are using the Victor I personally know.
That all said, I would prefer the super Victor if it was fully ported, but I had concerns with it fitting under my flat hood(69 Dart)

Thanks Don. Had I done a better job with the Victor I probably would have went with it. Since I had to get another intake anyway the Super Victor was the obvious choice.

I'm hoping it will fit under a flat hood but it's fine if I have to get a scoop.

 

[B3422w5]

Thanks Don. Had I done a better job with the Victor I probably would have went with it. Since I had to get another intake anyway the Super Victor was the obvious choice.

I'm hoping it will fit under a flat hood but it's fine if I have to get a scoop.

Will be curious to see if it fits with your hood.
I thought( at one point) the super Victor is no taller than an Edelbrock air gap, which I had on my old 360 at one point and it fit fine, but I think I talked myself out of believing it..lol
Be cool if some had both and could measure. I know what fits, but I don’t know what doesn’t fit

 

[rmchrgr]

Will be curious to see if it fits with your hood.
I thought( at one point) the super Victor is no taller than an Edelbrock air gap, which I had on my old 360 at one point and it fit fine, but I think I talked myself out of believing it..lol
Be cool if some had both and could measure. I know what fits, but I don’t know what doesn’t fit

Super Victor is 1" taller than the Air Gap.

Mezshurmints.

 

[pittsburghracer]

Their competition porting service starts at $2K though they do offer a less-involved 'intermediate' service for around $1,200. Of course they suggest the comp. service first!

Just realize that to get the best results with either choice you ship them your heads. Shipping a set of heads back and forth to Florida from CT would probably have cost me a couple hundred bucks. Hurts to think what that would cost from California.

Intake Manifold Porting | Wilson Manifolds

My particular quote with the competition porting was going to be way more than $2K though and in fact closer to $3K. I probably could have been fine with the intermediate job but either way $1,200 is still a ton of money to spend on an intake especially since that price did not include any repair labor.

They told me the butchered intake would need at least five hours of welding(!) first to fix it then add extra material on the tops of the runners so they could have enough room to do their thing. After that it was obvious I should just forget the Victor and get the S.V. I called the head builder and he confirmed the S.V. was the way to go. Found one the next day and here we are.

Based on every picture I've seen of Wilson's work there's no doubt it would have been a killer intake. I just couldn't justify spending that much for them to repair and modify an off-the-shelf manifold for a street/strip engine.

Wilson has their place in the market for guys that like “pretty” and think pretty makes it the fastest. The intake can only be as good as the heads. If you ask 10 head and intake porters what finish the intake should have on it I’m betting 8 out of 10 are going to say a rougher bur finish. But it sure isn’t the prettiest finish.

 

[rmchrgr]

Wilson has their place in the market for guys that like “pretty” and think pretty makes it the fastest. The intake can only be as good as the heads. If you ask 10 head and intake porters what finish the intake should have on it I’m betting 8 out of 10 are going to say a rougher bur finish. But it sure isn’t the prettiest finish.

There's more to it than the finish. In talking to them it seemed like they really focus on getting everything equalized internally (volume, taper) which is what takes the most time. They probably cut more intakes in half than not for that reason. Had I decided to use that hacked up Victor without fixing the runners I would have had some level of cylinder-to-cylinder tuning issues. I very well may have some with the S.V. too though maybe not as pronounced since far less material was removed.

Ultimately their service wasn't for me this time but I do understand what they do and why they do it and can appreciate the end product. If I had unlimited funds to throw at stuff like this and/or didn't have to justify the cost to myself they'd be porting an intake for me. No one can see inside the intake anyway and if I don't blab about it no one would be any wiser.

 

[mopowers]

I've heard and read nothing but great things about Wilson's intake porting service. I can only assume their reputation was built on the performance of their product and not looks.

 

[pittsburghracer]

I've heard and read nothing but great things about Wilson's intake porting service. I can only assume their reputation was built on the performance of their product and not looks.

Ok I’ll try explaining this a different way. Probably using this site for and example 80% of the guys on here have heads flowing 300cfm or less. Now I’ll ask you a question. If you put a Wilson ported 2000.00 for porting alone intake on those 300cfm heads what are the heads going to flow with the intake bolted on??? And trust me I know flow isn’t everything but a perfectly ported intake can not correct a poorly ported head.

 

[mopowers]

Ok I’ll try explaining this a different way. Probably using this site for and example 80% of the guys on here have heads flowing 300cfm or less. Now I’ll ask you a question. If you put a Wilson ported 2000.00 for porting alone intake on those 300cfm heads what are the heads going to flow with the intake bolted on??? And trust me I know flow isn’t everything but a perfectly ported intake can not correct a poorly ported head.

Shoot, I'd bet it's more like 90-95% or more.

I wonder if that's the expectation of their customers? I always figured their customer base was building high-end, balls out type builds where a max ported intake resulted in a significant power increase.

 

[rmchrgr]

Regardless of what Wilson does or charges, I'm happy with the way my intake came out. After trashing the first one, a couple hundred bucks for another intake is not going to break the bank plus I learned how to do stuff in the process. Home porting FTW.