Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

[fishy68]

Treblig I commend you on your effort to make it work but have a question. Would it be possible to eliminate the stock linkage from the A-body shifter and connect a cable to run to the 200R4? I replaced the stock a-body shifter in my Cuda several yrs. ago with a Quicksilver (mounted under the a-body console) so I don't remember exactly what the stock shifter was like but if it's possible to attach a cable to it it might be easier than what it's taking to make the linkage work. Just a thought

 

[Treblig]

Fishy68,

From your post I'm not sure if you want to go back to the stock shifter or if you want to make the aftermarket shifter work in your car. Either way here's one way to get the aftermarket to work.
I've used cable shifters on other cars with 200R4 and 700R4. It should work on any car. The trick is to put a lever on the trans shift shaft that has a hole in it that is at a distance that will match the throw of the shifter handle. If you read all of my post I kinda talked about it. I chose a lever to put on the trans (see pics) that allowed you to have a throw of 1 1/2" because that's what my Cuda linkage has. But in your case it will depend on how you hook-up your cable. On the shifter handle you'll have to figure out where to attach the cable so that you get the correct amount of throw so that your transmission goes through all the gears as your shifter goes through all the gears (basically you have to match the detents of the trans shifter shaft to the shifter handle detents). Sometimes, like I've done before, you can hook up the cable directly to the levers under the shifter handle, sometimes the shifters have various holes so you can pick the amount of throw.
But in the end the easiest way is to hook the cable directly to the shifter and install a lever on the trans that allows you to match the throw of the shifter in the console. Just imagine a lever 3 inches long on the trans with a hole every 1/4" or every 3/8". Now you simply move your shifter cable from one hole to the next until you match the throw of the console shifter to the throw of the trans and it's done. To tell you the truth I've done it exactly like that and as luck will have it the spot you need turns out to be between two holes and you then have too make another lever. Of course you can make a slot in which case problem solved.

Hope this helps...where are the pics of your ride??

Treblig

 

[RedFish]

I'm thinking to use a cable on the stock shifter, all of the OEM linkage would be eliminated. A cable can be any length and routed about any way as long as you maintain radius in turns to get free operation. I prefer rigid linkage when ever possible. I'm thinking the shifter itself would be extended straight down through a new opening made in the floor. Down there is where the head scratching fabrication begins. I'm prone to utilize those materials previously removed too.

 

[Treblig]

Redfish, your right. It's better to use a longer cable to get the correct radius on the turns where a shorter cable might bind. You didn't mention what type of trans your running?
The stock shifter handle is close to the middle of the tunnel. The stock set-up uses two levers, one attached to the upper rod and one attached to the lower rod. These two levers together move the shifting movement about 4" or 5" out away from the shifter handle. If you extend the bottom of the shifter straight down through the floor you might think about moving it more toward the driver's side to decrease the length of the lever if you're going with solid linkage. The longer the lever the more deflection you get. Mopar solved this problem by using the torque shaft making it possible to use two levers with a pivot point as opposed to one long lever.

Treblig

 

[fishy68]

Fishy68,

From your post I'm not sure if you want to go back to the stock shifter or if you want to make the aftermarket shifter work in your car. Either way here's one way to get the aftermarket to work.
I've used cable shifters on other cars with 200R4 and 700R4. It should work on any car. The trick is to put a lever on the trans shift shaft that has a hole in it that is at a distance that will match the throw of the shifter handle. If you read all of my post I kinda talked about it. I chose a lever to put on the trans (see pics) that allowed you to have a throw of 1 1/2" because that's what my Cuda linkage has. But in your case it will depend on how you hook-up your cable. On the shifter handle you'll have to figure out where to attach the cable so that you get the correct amount of throw so that your transmission goes through all the gears as your shifter goes through all the gears (basically you have to match the detents of the trans shifter shaft to the shifter handle detents). Sometimes, like I've done before, you can hook up the cable directly to the levers under the shifter handle, sometimes the shifters have various holes so you can pick the amount of throw.
But in the end the easiest way is to hook the cable directly to the shifter and install a lever on the trans that allows you to match the throw of the shifter in the console. Just imagine a lever 3 inches long on the trans with a hole every 1/4" or every 3/8". Now you simply move your shifter cable from one hole to the next until you match the throw of the console shifter to the throw of the trans and it's done. To tell you the truth I've done it exactly like that and as luck will have it the spot you need turns out to be between two holes and you then have too make another lever. Of course you can make a slot in which case problem solved.

Hope this helps...where are the pics of your ride??

Treblig

You misunderstood my post. I have no desire to change mine. What I was asking is would it be possible to just attach a shifter cable to a stock shifter and run it to the 200R4 rather than doing all the fabricating your doing? If it would work it seems like it would be a lot less work.

Here's a couple pictures of mine with the Quicksilver under the factory console

View attachment DSC02225-1.jpg

View attachment DSC02509.jpg

 

[Treblig]

I see no reason why you couldn't use a cable instead of mechanical linkage. Yes it would be easier and faster and require less fabrication. The only small problem (very small) is getting/locating the hole in the trans lever to catch all the detents. Most of the aftermarket shifters have a hole or two where you can attach a cable but you will probably have to manufacture a small bracket to secure the threaded part of the cable. I'm sure you've seen them in Jegs or Summit (see pic). There's a threaded end with two jam nuts. You make a small bracket put a hole in it the size of the threaded part of the cable that find a spot to mount the bracket under the console. You just have to make sure you mount the bracket at the correct distance from the shifter levers so that you get the full stroke of the cable and the shifter. I had to build a small bracket for the '35 Chevy I built. It's pretty simple. Hope this helps.
Do your best to line up the cable and bracket so that there is the least amount of resistance and the best alignment (It makes the cable slide easier).
Oh wait did you say you wanted to use the stock shifter...if you did then the answer is still yes. I believe they also sell cables with a 90 degree end on it so you can stick it in the hole on the shifter lever or you can use a small clevis (makes it simple)

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here's a pic with a small clevis which allows you to connect a straight threaded rod to a hole in a shifter lever.

Treblig

 

[fishy68]

I see no reason why you couldn't use a cable instead of mechanical linkage. Yes it would be easier and faster and require less fabrication. The only small problem (very small) is getting/locating the hole in the trans lever to catch all the detents. Most of the aftermarket shifters have a hole or two where you can attach a cable but you will probably have to manufacture a small bracket to secure the threaded part of the cable. I'm sure you've seen them in Jegs or Summit (see pic). There's a threaded end with two jam nuts. You make a small bracket put a hole in it the size of the threaded part of the cable that find a spot to mount the bracket under the console. You just have to make sure you mount the bracket at the correct distance from the shifter levers so that you get the full stroke of the cable and the shifter. I had to build a small bracket for the '35 Chevy I built. It's pretty simple. Hope this helps.
Do your best to line up the cable and bracket so that there is the least amount of resistance and the best alignment (It makes the cable slide easier).
Oh wait did you say you wanted to use the stock shifter...if you did then the answer is still yes. I believe they also sell cables with a 90 degree end on it so you can stick it in the hole on the shifter lever or you can use a small clevis (makes it simple)

Treblig

Dude, please read this and listen carefully because your missing my point. At no point did I ever say I wanted to switch from what I have now. My only point was it seems like it would be simpler to use a cable instead of all the fabricating. I have made cable mounting brackets and modified lever throw lengths and it appears easier than fabricating metal linkage. Please understand I'm not knocking what your doing. Was just bringing up another train of thought on how to work around using a stock shifter with a 200R4. I hope things are clear now

 

[Treblig]

Got it! and yes cable is probably easier especially with the trans body clearance problems.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Well I've pretty much finished the new lower cross member and new trans mount. Instead of making the lower cross member one piece like the stock one I decided to make it in front and back sections. It's a decision that you have to make. Since I basically lost the adjoining piece that links/connects one side of the upper cross member to the other side I made a kinka belly pan piece to act a guard in case I go over a speed bump and scrape the tranny pan (the 200R4 seems to hang a little lower than stock). This belly pan (not sure what else to call it) piece also serves another function. With the factory lower cross member gone and part of the upper cut away I don't want the force of the torsion bars to distort the floor. I installed heavier torsion bars to get the car up off the ground so I know there's plenty of force acting on the brace that runs across the belly of the car. The belly pan piece should restore the majority of the structural integrity originally designed into the cross member.
The first pic shows the forward portion of the cross member. Then other pics with the trans mount then with the rear section in place. The rear pieces still have to welded to the piece that holds the trans rubber mount (that's why there are vice grips in the pics). I figured since I don't know exactly there the trans will end up vertically I will install everything, get the trans exactly where it needs to be, tack weld the trans rubber mount piece to the two side rear pieces, remove the rear pieces and weld them solid, trim off any excess pieces of metal and reinstall. If you notice the driver's side rear piece is longer than the passenger, this is because the one bolt (inboard) on the driver's side cannot be used after cutting the upper cross member. I guess Mopar knew many years ago that people would install 200R4s in the a-bodies (LOL) because the driver's side between the torsion bar and the lower cross member) has a lot more room (3 1/2") than the passenger side (1 1/4"). This makes it easy to elongate the driver's side lower cross member piece so that you can drill for the second bolt that you lost by cutting the upper brace.
You might notice the pilot holes I've drilled in the rear cross member pieces. I did this because if you drill the hole out to size it's harder to get the exact center of the hole when you drill the upper cross member. With a small pilot hole I can install the piece, get everything aligned using the other original hole (which can still be used), then use the pilot hole to transfer the hole location to the upper cross member that way you get a good fit. Once the pilot hole is drilled you remove the piece and drill through the pilot hole in the upper brace and you'll have the exact location.

I bought some 1/8" X 3" flat stock. My next project will be to slide (maybe tap in with a small mallet) the flat stock into the gap that exists between the upper brace/cross member and the body. I mentioned this in the first page of this thread (pics also). If I can get two or three sections of this flat stock in that gap (stack them edge to edge) and weld them to the flanges of the upper brace it should more than compensate for cutting away the chunk out of the brace to fit the 200R4. These pieces of flat stock might also give me a better place to mount the lower pivot point for the shifter torque shaft. But like "fishy68" said, a cable shift would probably be a lot easier and I might end up doing that if it becomes impossible to use the manual linkage. Would hate to go through all this trouble and not be able to use my gear shift!!!
OK, I'm officially tired of writing...Back to work.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Boy...that was easy, fast and cheap. I guess Murphy doesn't work on Sunday ( as in "Murphy's Law). I cut two pieces of 1/8" X 3" flat stock lightly hammered a slight curve into each piece and they all but fell into place. The lower one requires a kinda sharp curve down near the bottom but it was easy. The second piece only took light tapping with a small hammer to get it to slide in.
In the pics you can see how the bottom one comes out right next to the shifter torque shaft (just like I planned.. LOL). Now in reality the bottom piece is a little too close to the torque shaft in order use a rod end but you could probably cut and weld (or maybe bolt) the stock lower pivot bracket to the flat stock pretty easy once the tranny is out. My plan was to install a piece of 1/8 flat stock on either side of the bulge (sandwich the body sheet metal) just below the shifter boot to get enough distance to install a rod end then weld a piece from that small piece of flat stock to the piece that runs between the body and the upper trans cross member (the ones in the pics). This should give the torque shaft lower pivot brace plenty of rigidity. I don't know why I'm going through all this trouble when I could just use a cable shift but I like a challenge???
If I install the tanny and for some reason there's no way to use the mechanical linkage the cable shift method is my fall back position. I just didn't feel like tearing out the console and the linkage, making another hole for the cable and all that stuff.
Now that I fitted these pieces of flat stock into their new homes you can see the flanges/lips on the upper cross member. This is where I plan to weld the flat stock to the cross member (right along the flanges' edge). If you take your time welding and use a wet rag to cool things off as you go you don't even have to remove your carpet, you're not welding directly to the trans tunnel itself. This should give the upper cross member plenty of rigidity compensating for the cutting that will be required for the 200R4 install.

Again, this was very, very easy and cheap. It took about 10 minutes including the cutting of the flat stock. I'm not ready to weld them in yet so I removed the pieces and will paint and store for now. I still need to cut one more piece so that there will be three stacked one above the other.

I get the new rod end next week so I can try and see how it fits with relation to the pieces of flat stock...maybe I won't have to make a hole in the tunnel for the rod end??

Treblig

 

[Trogdoor]

Sorry, but my ignorance speaking. Can the interior gear shift be kept and the interior linkage be modified for the correct throw to use a cable setup to hook up to the 200r4? It seems that the length of the bellcrank in the interior could be modified to give the correct throw to the transmission utilizing a cable.

 

[Treblig]

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You want to keep your shifter and the rod that goes to the upper bell crank and the upper pivot point? If this is correct then you would still need a lower pivot point for the upper bell crank to function. I guess it would just as easy to hook a cable up to the bottom of the shifter right where the upper rod attaches. I've thought about this idea a lot in case I can't use the torque shaft. Just remember that the direction you approach the shifter from determines whether you're pulling or pushing the trans shift arm.
Does this answer your question?

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Just remember that the amount of throw is determined by both the amount the shifter moves and by the length of the lever on the trans. When I put a 700R4 (very similar to 200R4) in my '35 Chevy I hooked the cable directly to the shifter and made a lever for the trans with a series of holes to adjust the amount of throw. Also, you can either have the trans lever pointing up or down so that it gives you a choice on which direction you approach the shifter (pushing or pulling). You might have to design/make a bracket to hold the cable end where it attaches to the trans. They sell these brackets but I don't know if they sell them to use with the trans lever pointing down?? But things can be modified!!

Treblig

 

[RedFish]

I cant know from experience what will or will not work. What I do know is both ends of the cable and both ends of the cables sheathe will need to be anchored somewhere.
I have to think deleting all of the factory linkage first and starting with a clean slate would be the best plan. Working from the OEM shifter straight down through the floor. Cable sheathe anchored ahead or behind the shifter and ahead or behind the shift lever on the trans, depending on push or pull required. In either case a return spring will be needed opposing the sheathe anchors.
I often take my insight and inspiration from what those engineers much smarter than me have already fingered out. To do this I'll go the pick and pull yards and study various examples. Most everything there today will have a cable operated floor shift.
Attached is pitiful rendition of 2 different cable routings. Return spring(s) not shown.

 

[Treblig]

I agree REDFISH!! But if you're going to use a cable it's just as easy to attach it to the bottom of the stock shifter which would only require a small hole in the floor for the cable. There's a good chance you might even be able to connect the cable to the existing hole where the upper rod connects to the shifter. If you cut a slot for the shifter arm to protrude below the trans tunnel then you have a larger hole to seal (exhaust). Not sure if Trogdoor is building a street cruiser or drag car. I'm building a daily driver so exhaust fumes are a big concern.
Your so called "pitiful" depiction ain't bad. I'm still trying to figure out how to put lines on the darn pic!!!

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

This is how I would route the cable or if you want the shifter to "push" on the cable just mount in front of shifter but then you have to get a much longer cable because you'll still have to approach the transmission shifter lever from the rear.
If the pic looks funny it's because I copied it to powerpoint so I could put lines on it. This website wouldn't accept that type of pic so I took a JPEG pic of the computer screen. That's why it has that shiny area. There's more than one way to skin a cat!!!

treblig

 

[Trogdoor]

The car is a 68 Dart convertible that is intended to be a street cruiser and possibly taken on a Power Tour in the future. For the 200r4 would the cable need to push or pull at the transmission itself?

 

[Treblig]

I'm going to have to do a little more thinking on that because the bottom of the shifter moves forward when you pull the handle back. If the cable is put behind the shifter the you will be pulling on the cable. If you pull on the cable when leaving the "park" detent it forces you to mount the cable so that the hole in the trans lever is below the trans shifting shaft. The trans lever must turn counter-clockwise when you go from park to low. I need to see how much room is below the trans in the area where the trans lever is located.
We'll see later today.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

OK...In the first pic you can see the 200R4 trans lever in the upright position. First pic is with trans in "PARK" second pic is with Trans in "LOW" gear. Third pic is with trans lever in down position with trans in "park", last pic is with trans in "LOW".
If you mount the shifter cable behind the shifter so that you're "pulling" the cable when you shift out of "park" then you are forced to mount the trans lever in the down position so that you pull the trans out of park.
If you mount the shifter cable in front of the shifter then you are "pushing" the cable as you come out of "Park". In this case you would have to mount the trans lever in the upright position so that you are "pushing" the trans out of "Park" as you pull the shifter back.
The only difference is how much room you have in front of and behind the shifter to fit the cable and how much bend you have to put in the cable to get from point "a" to point "b". If you mount the cable in front of shifter you will need a much longer cable which will probably have to go from the point in front of the shifter through a hole in the tunnel then forward around the passenger's side of the tranny and around the tail section of the tranny in order to approach the shifter from the rear.
If you mount the cable behind the shifter it much easier, like the pic I showed in my previous post.
Of course it's up to you. You will need to buy or manufacture a bracket that holds the cable under the trans pan rail. You want the cable to be horizontal after installation (at least the part of the cable that goes from the bracket to the trans lever). The bigger the bends (in the cable) the better. I'm sure each manufacturer has their minimum radius requirements for the bends in the cables.

That silver spot you see on the trans lever is where I would drill the hole so that I get 1 1/2" of throw (which is the Cuda stock linkage throw).

Hope this helps, do you plan to abandon the stock shifter linkage??

Now if only someone could tell me an easy way to wire the neutral safety switch/back up light from the 200R four prong plug??? I'm a machinist and a welder, I think I know everything but sadly....I don't!!

treblig

 

[Treblig]

This is starting to look very possible. I got the new 1/2" rod end in the mail and mocked it up. It looks like there's plenty of room and it also (because the rod end is so small) looks like I won't have to put a hole in the body for the rod end. I believe I can make a mount for the rod end to the 1/8" plate that I install between the upper brace and the body. I plan to put the 1/8" plate in there one way or the other for reinforcement. The rod end can be supported by this mount. I might have to cut off a portion of the threaded part of the rod end but that portion of extra threads wouldn't be needed anyway.

I haven't finished bending the arm that comes off the (fake) torque shaft so it's sticking down at a funny angle. I'm probably going to wait until I install the tranny before I put the final bends in the arm to make sure I get it right.
I have manufactured a bracket for the rod end and that is my next project.

Yes I am crazy!1

treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here in the pics you can see a piece of metal I cut out to show how the rod end would fit in the small space between the torque shaft and the small bulge in the trans tunnel (just below the shifter boot). I cut the small piece of metal to simulate putting it in the small space, it represents the rod end. I would have hate to tear the whole car apart only to find out all my plans don't work. As you can see I'll have to cut off some of the threads (shank) so that the rod end will fit without having to make a hole in the tunnel (like I had originally planned).
I have a plan to install a mounting point for the rod end. I'll post pics as I proceed.
I haven't had much input or criticism so I don't know if I'm entertaining or boring everyone out there!!

Next I plan to re-install those 1/8" plates to simulate how the plates orient with relation to the rod end (piece of metal) for simulation. If the 1/8" metal plates come out in the right spot I should be able to use them as a mounted surface for the rod end!!

treblig in Tex

 

[Trogdoor]

Yes, keep the build as detailed as you have so far. I look forward to the pre-engineering without the 200r4 in the car. It will be interesting when the actual swap takes place.

 

[Treblig]

Yes Trogdoor, I'll either look like a fool or a genius!!! I know one thing for sure...I will make it work one way or another.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Oh I forgot to mention...I had to make the fake rod end out of a piece of metal then cut off the top end where 1/2 of the bearing goes. There's no way to slide the actual rod end onto the torque shaft because the lower bell crank (lever) is welded onto the torque shaft. If I cut it off I can't drive my Cuda. So I made that small piece of metal to represent the rod end and be able to put it in place between the torque shaft and the tunnel bulge just under the shifter boot. I can't see why it won't work but until I get the 200R4 under the car I will not know EXACTLY how much clearance I'll have to clear the torque shaft and the rod end with relation to the 200R4 housing. All my mock-ups say it can be done but "REALITY" bites!!!

treblig in Tex