10 sec. 318?

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I was going to trow a set of air shocks in for some fun to get the rear end up and looking good, possibly a set of traction bars or something at some point\


You see…… That is the typical stuff done by a young guy in a first build. It is pointless, a mistake and flushing money down the toilet.

This is why several of us have told you to form a plan then build to that plan.

Many people have had big dreams (like a first build daily driver that runs 10s). In the end they spend a bunch of money on crap that doesn't work and have a car that is the definition of half-***.

They end up frustrated and drive a mini-van for the rest of their lives.


We have a kid on here (wish I could find the thread)…… Anyway.. He was 14 and his Dad got him a 74 Swinger. Father and son project done the right way. They kept is simple, working through the systems of the car, rebuilding the brakes, rebuilding the suspension…. All stock stuff.

They put some Cragers on it. Pumped up the engine (318 ) a bit with an intake, carb and cam. Redid the exhaust.

Now this car may not be a show winner but it is a cool ride that he built and it gave him one hell of an education.


By keeping it simple and learning the basics on his first build he avoided the frustration and loss and focused on the FUN! Now he can move onto bigger and better things when his budget allows.
 
I know that I'm gonna get attacked on this, But I don't think it's out of the question.
here's the best I can come up with.

Eagle 390 stroker kit (saw one on ebay for $1092.00)
Fully ported and polished (by them) indy LA-X heads ($2400)
Edelbrock Performer RPM II Dual-Stage Nitrous systems ($819.95
Big Cam $200
Headers $300
Carb/Intake $1000
I come up with $5811.95 (leaves room for gaskets, shipping, ect...)

Soooooo... I know I'm gonna get blasted over this . Let me have it guys!!! Where did I screw up?
 
I know that I'm gonna get attacked on this, But I don't think it's out of the question.
here's the best I can come up with.

Eagle 390 stroker kit (saw one on ebay for $1092.00)
Fully ported and polished (by them) indy LA-X heads ($2400)
Edelbrock Performer RPM II Dual-Stage Nitrous systems ($819.95
Big Cam $200
Headers $300
Carb/Intake $1000
I come up with $5811.95 (leaves room for gaskets, shipping, ect...)

Soooooo... I know I'm gonna get blasted over this . Let me have it guys!!! Where did I screw up?

Unless you are a machinist or know someone that's willing to give away work, getting the block prepared correctly can potentially run up well over a grand. Then there's ignition, exhaust and fuel system. There's also the chassis work associated with a 10 second car - roll bar, harness, electrical stuff etc. Wheels, tires and suspension could easily cost over $2K. Then there's the trailer to get to and from the track (if you're going to do it regularly you're going to break stuff, just no two ways about it).

So now you have a $5,800 pile of parts to build a 400 hp engine which might get you into the 11's if you really strip the car and run a big gear.

Comes back to the old adage of how fast you want to go = how much can you spend?
 
You see…… That is the typical stuff done by a young guy in a first build. It is pointless, a mistake and flushing money down the toilet.

What exactly is wasting money? I've pretty much realized that there is no way my car is going to make it into the 10s. I don't have the money and don't want to chop the car up. I'm not going to back-half it or mess with the body and chassis much. I'm not a welder and I don't want to have my car sitting in a shop for a month waiting for work, I want to be able to do as much myself as I can. I may just go with SS leaf springs, but what's wrong with putting traction bars on the car? Are you trying to say that they won't make a difference? I'll admit the air shocks are not really meant for racing or anything, just trying to get the back end of the car off the ground with my current springs. We had a 69 Charger with a pair in the rear that would give it a nice stance on the road when they were pumped up. It's only maybe $60 for a set, so it's basically a band-aid until I get SS springs or something and a relocation kit. I really don't have the money to do it all at once, so I'm trying to do things in groups that make sense. For instance, if I buy new springs I would like to get a relocation kit at the same time, and if I do that I need to move my axle perches, but at that point I would like to upgrade to an 8.75 at the same time since I would need to modify the perches to fit. I can do everything one at a time, but then I'd be redoing the work every time I bought something new. I'd rather save up and do chunks of work at a time rather then buy one piece every month until I have enough to do the whole thing.

I've been working on cars for over 10 years with my dad, this isn't my first build. I have a 71 Vette that I've been fixing up for the past 8 years that's my restoration car. I want this to be my fun car. That's why I'm so concerned about getting the engine combo right the first time. I wanted a 5.7, but the more I read the more it was out of my price range. I wanted to do a blown motor, but I don't have the money, so I looked into strokers. I wanted to stroke what I had so I didn't need to go out and buy more parts, but I don't know that the block would take it. I'm now up to a 360 stroker, but I haven't dropped a penny yet because I still don't know what I can get out of one and want to be sure before I do commit to a build. I've settled for the fact that I can't have everything I want, but I'd still like help to know if the plans that I do come up with will work or not. If Dodge could build a hemi dart that would turn 10s in a quarter 40+ years ago without all the fancy crap we have nowadays, why can't I? I didn't think the 68 hemi dart used anything out of the ordinary other than a giant engine and no weight. I don't recall them using a 4 link or other stuff, but then again I can't say I'm an expert on the subject, so I could be wrong.
 
Well, reading back over my post I apologize ahead of time, I was a little hot under the collar at the time. Long story short my plan is to take the 60's approach of putting a big *** engine in it and super stiff leaf springs. I mean, if they could acid dip bodies and drill holes in frames and the cars held together why woudln't they unmodified? I don't intend to race often, just a few times a month maybe to have fun. I don't need a car that will run a 10.90 every single time I drop the clutch, just something that will give my passengers a white knuckle ride when I drop the hammer =P. I don't really care about the frills in a daily driver, I just want something that looks nice and is fun to drive. I don't need a smooth ride and premium sound system to drive around every day.
 
First of all, the question was about a $6000 engine to get him there, he stated clearly in an earlier post that that did not include the car mods. Second of all, a thousand dollars for block prep is extremely high, at least in my area. and lastly the idea that a 390 stroker motor with indy LA-X heads fully ported and polished BY THEM, with the proper cam, intake, exhaust and yes ignition would only be a 400hp mill I think is silly. Not to mention that that also didn't include the 400hp Edelbrock dual stage nitrous setup. The only fault that I found in my example is that Eagle uses a cast crank for their stroker kits and I don't know if it would holed up to that much abuse.
Everyone knows the now famous junkyard jewl article where a well preped (by hand) set of swirl port heads a cam and basic USED bolt ons propelled a well used 318 to 406HP.
I think you guys are being way to closed minded about the idea building a 318. Any time some one asks about a 318 or 273 build everyoe tells them to junk it and go 360. There is a lot of knoweledge on here and I think that if people tried using they're knoweledge to come up with some non traditional ideas, and actually answer the questions, that we could come up with some really great ideas.
 
First of all, the question was about a $6000 engine to get him there, he stated clearly in an earlier post that that did not include the car mods. Second of all, a thousand dollars for block prep is extremely high, at least in my area. and lastly the idea that a 390 stroker motor with indy LA-X heads fully ported and polished BY THEM, with the proper cam, intake, exhaust and yes ignition would only be a 400hp mill I think is silly. Not to mention that that also didn't include the 400hp Edelbrock dual stage nitrous setup. The only fault that I found in my example is that Eagle uses a cast crank for their stroker kits and I don't know if it would holed up to that much abuse.
Everyone knows the now famous junkyard jewl article where a well preped (by hand) set of swirl port heads a cam and basic USED bolt ons propelled a well used 318 to 406HP.
I think you guys are being way to closed minded about the idea building a 318. Any time some one asks about a 318 or 273 build everyoe tells them to junk it and go 360. There is a lot of knoweledge on here and I think that if people tried using they're knoweledge to come up with some non traditional ideas, and actually answer the questions, that we could come up with some really great ideas.

You said "Let me have it guys!!! Where did I screw up?" I was just replying to your post. No one is saying that it can't be done. Me and everyone else here would love to see the guy accomplish his goals and let us in on how he did it.

Not many guys stroke a 318 because it's the same or less money to build an engine with 40 more cubes. Even if you start with a stock stroke 360 vs. a stock stroke 318 you're still cubes ahead. Why start with less? It's so much easier to make power if you can get more air into the engine, that's simple physics.

I am one of the club that believe 360s grow on trees and guys are giving them away. I myself just bought a complete mid-80's 360 shortblock for $75. This way on May 8, 2010. How do you pass that up? I had been thinking of ways to hop up my own 318 and the farther I got into it, the less financial sense it made. $75 is a pretty small entry fee, I would think most guys should be able to swing that, all other things being equal.

Besides, a 390 is an undersquare engine, which is generally designed for low speed torque. The Slant 6 is an undersquare engine, think how hard it is to hot rod them without a power adder. Conversely, the 340 is an oversquare engine, larger bore than stroke, think how much power they can make in basically stock form. The ubiquitous SBC is the prime example of an oversquare engine.

Plus as everyone knows, the car needs to be set up to run properly - ET is not just engine power, it's just as much in chassis tuning. Not adding in "Car mods' like you say is unrealistic. 318s (like most small block engines) need a ton of gear and converter. Was a custom converter factored in? Regardless, money adds up quickly wherever you look.

Bottom line though, no way ANYONE is going 10s with a 318/390 with an engine budget of $6K, just ain't gonna happen no matter what parts you throw at it.

:read2:
 
First, I wouldn't buy anything ported from Indy. Plus, you don't really need to port the LA-X heads to get the power required if done like Brian's set up.

Second, you could get in the 10's as far as an engine package using a 390 stroker set up for under 6K. Look at the magazine deal Brian did with that 410. The same basic package would get you really close for an HP output, especially in a 3000-3150# car. Build it and put a 75-100 shot on it and it would be a mid tens set up in a good chassis, high tens on engine. You could save a bunch of money over the mag build shopping right for valve train (rockers), intake, carb, ignition and exhaust components.

Have fun with it. My 2 cents.
 
First, I wouldn't buy anything ported from Indy. Plus, you don't really need to port the LA-X heads to get the power required if done like Brian's set up.

Second, you could get in the 10's as far as an engine package using a 390 stroker set up for under 6K. Look at the magazine deal Brian did with that 410. The same basic package would get you really close for an HP output, especially in a 3000-3150# car. Build it and put a 75-100 shot on it and it would be a mid tens set up in a good chassis, high tens on engine. You could save a bunch of money over the mag build shopping right for valve train (rockers), intake, carb, ignition and exhaust components.

Have fun with it. My 2 cents.

I agree, there is no need shelling out 2400.00 for a set of heads, i know Brian sells his prepped RHSs for about 1300.00, & if i'm not mistaken, they flow around 270, you just can't beat that, i only paid 875.00 for mine in basic stock form & they flow 242, if you looked at my combo from my thread, i have a total of 5500.00 & change in my WHOLE car (includeing the car), i just clicked off 12.5s easy, & with alittle tinkering & tuneing i should be solidly in the 12.4s with a 12.3 now & then, & if i do get around to ever spraying it with 100/125 shot, i'll almost bet it runs 7.0s & very low 11s., my goal was 12.99, i'm already .5 faster, so my next goal is a 7.99 in the 1/8, i've run a best of 8.06, this car only has 5 passes on it, i see so many guys out there dumping all this crap into there cars & still going slower then they should be, THATS plain stupid in my book, its not rocket sience, there is nothing "worse" then looking cool at the track with all your fancy garbage & not running good times, i'd rather look so-so & have people go :shock:.
 
I'm not saying that the $2400 heads are the "BEST"deal, I just know that Indy know how to make heads flow. My goal was just to demonstrate that there is the potential to build an extremely powerful 318 based engine. The initial question was not "which engine is better to build, a 318 or a 360?" If it were, I'd be on the same band wagon. I like to see the discussions on the build up of these non typical (273-318) small blocks. people have lots of reasons why they want to use a certain block. I personally LOVE 273's. One of my fondest childhood memories was of going to a mopar only drag with my brother and watching a belvedere with an extreme 273, with 14" numbers on the fenders stating 273, destroy the big blocks in the 1/4.
Yes, a 360 is a cheaper starting point with more potential in the end, but it is still refreshing once in a while to just answer the question of "what is the best big horsepower 318 build up" and share ideas.
 
I would absolutely love to keep the 318 and hot rod it, but a lot of it really comes down to money. I think I'd have a harder time finding good parts for a 318 than I would for a 360, the market just isn't on my side. I'm also concerned with what the bottom of a stock 318 will hold up to. I can get a stroker kit for it and go mostly forged internals, but if the mains are gonna pop it doesn't do me much good. How much stuff is direct swap between a 318 and 360? At this point I think I'd be happy with 400+ horse for the time being, preferably that would hold up to some boost down the road so I could really try to crank it up. Since I don't plan to tub the car I'm limted on tire size, probably around 10.5 to 12 inches of tread I think (and hope, lol). I'm going with a 4 speed as well, which is already in the car, so I don't need to worry about converters or stall, though I know I'll need a stiffer clutch to handle the power. I'm getting Lasik this friday which is the main reason for my budget, otherwise I'd have a new hemi or a nice blower sitting out of the hood =P.
 
The bottom end is where the 318 shines. If you're looking for 400hp, read the junkyard Jewl article. If you are handy with a dremel and some other tools, it is a DIRT cheap route to 400hp from a 318. The 318 block is EXTREMELY strong. It was designed strictly as a workhorse. At the time the 318 was designed, the 340 was the powerhouse small block, the 318 was designed to be indestructable. A stock 67-74 short block is gonna have a forged crank and flat top pistons. As you'll find out in the article, the only draw backs with the 318 (other than lack of cubes and a bore that is slightly less than optimal 4" ) are low compression, head flow and factory cam specs. Ported 302 casting swirl port heads solve the compression and flow issues in one shot. As shown in the article, adding the right cam, intake and exhaust resulted in 406HP. The hotrod magazine guys claim to only have spent $1400 (although they tend to get crazy good deals some times) I personally bought a pair of these heads already setup as per the article from a machine shop in MO. for $600! Anyways, there are some REALLY good 318 setups that cost A LOT less than $6000 if you're looking for the 400-500hp range.
Here is a link to the now famous article.

http://www.hotrod.com/howto/113_0304_318_small_block_build/index.html

and here's a link for the 390 stroker kits. This one's kinda expensive and I've found 'em cheaper, but this gives you an idea. oh yeah, I checked and they make a forged 4" crank too

http://www.campbellenterprises.com/318-stroker-kit-mopar-318-5.2-stroker-kits.php
 
I like the sound of that, I may have to look into it more. I've read the other two 318 400 horse articles, but haven't seen this one yet. How much do you think a machine shop would charge for porting? I would do it myself, but I'm not really that confident in the delicate work and don't want to screw up a good set of heads. Alternatively, would a set of aftermarket heads (like RHS or Edelbrocks) pretty much get me the same performance (assuming I have the money to spend)? I actually have a 4 barrel on it now, so I could hopefully reuse most of the engine. I could probably do something like get heads and a cam now and then a stroker kit and intake down the road when I have the money. How much would a stroker kit even do for me after heads, cam, and intake?
 
I have a thing that hangs over my desk here... All kinds of useful tidbits. One of them says "Good judgement comes from experience... and a lot of that comes from bad judgement."
I've been doing this for decades. I had some bad judgements in my time and unfortunately I'm pretty sure I haven't goten to all of them yet...lol. So you guys asked, I answer. Be realistic, and my bad judgements lead me to say drop in a 360. It's not beating up the little guy. It's called not having money to do things twice. Some have the option of having money to do things over. For most of my life i haven't.
 
All I'm saying is there's more than 1 way to skin a cat. Personally I'm a 340 fan. If you talk to old sbknut he'll tell you that he's been racing mopars for 40 years and thinks that 318's are the best and that 360's aren't all they're cracked up to be. And don't forget our leaning engine friends here who make insane horsepower with only 225 C.I to work with. People tend to leave them alone though because it's so extreme that people asume that they know what they're getting into. I just think it's nice to get some fresh discussion sometimes. I and I think most others agree, it's easier and cheaper a lot of the time to just go the easy route and start with a 360. Others like the road less traveled and often find it very rewarding. I don't know about anyone else, But I get tired of hearing about the cheap easy 360 build ups. The truth is that there are plenty of proven builds for 318's to get tons of power without being Bill Gates. If the post says what's the best 360 build, or which is better a 360 or 318, then by all means lets have this same old discussion, but if it's what can I do with a 318, or what's the best 318 setup, or godf forbid some one want's to try and get power from a 273, let's answer the question. Let's talk about the proven builds and theorize about others. We don't all have to have cookie cutter small blocks.
Just my opinion.
 
I like the idea of something out of the box (in the difference sense, not necessarily bolt on, lol). The real irony will be that a hot rod 318 would be the smallest engine in my family's driveway but make the most power =P. At least until my dad finally builds his own Mopar... He grew up on Superbees and Road Runners and I have a feeling seeing an old Dart in the driveway with some muscle behind it might prompt him to look a little harder for himself, lol.
 
Don't let these guys get you down. They do it to everyone. Anytime anyone asks anything about a 273 or 318, the answer is the same "ditch it and throw in a 360" There really are some AMAZING 318's out there. A couple months ago mopar action did a feature on a 1974 dodge colt that was a street/strip car with a 500hp 318. And if you look around you'll find some bas *** 390 strokers on the net. They are right, you'll have an easier time getting big power out of a 360 if you're just going traditional off the shelf bolt ons, but not nescessarliy cheaper. A decently built 360 with after market parts and edelbrock aluminum heads, headers, 750 carb still puts you in the same 375-400hp area that a standard 318 short block+cam swirl port build gets you for a LOT less. It's not that one way is better, people just like what they like and you'll find that people get kind of heated sometimes and come off as condesending. A lot of it has to do with you're initial question. Guys see things like that and get all fired up. It's all in the wording here. Hopefully if you post a question like "what's the best 318 build on a $6000.00 budget, and please no ditch it for a 360 answers" you'll get a better response, but there will still be a few who feel like they have to save you from yourself.
 
Haha, thanks for the kind words. The more I look at it the smaller my budget gets. The more parts I take off the more I find out I need to fix other stuff to even get the car on the road in a presentable manner. i've been driving it around with basically just two seats in it, no carpet or headliner or anything, lol. It actually drives really nice though, I've been pretty impressed. I seriously doubt anyone touched the engine aside from a 4 barrel intake, but it seems like it runs well with good oil pressure and no weird noises or anything. I think it may be a good candidate for a buildup. Need to check the bores at some point though.
 
Hey just build what ya got! Thier all mopars after all!

I vote for magnum headed 318..
 
I was trying to find the link, but I saw a 68 barracuda with a 390 six pack that was really neat a little while ago. There really are some awsome possibilities out there, and yeah, the magnum setup s a really good one too. I'd really like to see some people posting they're 318 setups.
 
These specs are from the FBO website. They built a '66 Cuda with a 318 stroker package. They say it goes 10.84. Price it out, see what you come up with.

3.970 Bore 318 +.060
3.79 stroke Callies Crank
Callies Rods
Diamond 13.4:1 Pistons, tool steel pins and rings
EQ/FBO Stage 3 Race Heads
REV 2.00/1.60 SS Race Valves
Schubeck flat tappet solid lifters
Smith Brothers push rods
Racer Brown 1.6/1.5 Magnum roller rocker system
Racer Brown STX 20 Cam 267 at 50, 576/540 lift
Cometic head gaskets
FBO Ignition System
Race Demon 775 Carburetor
M-1 Mopar Magnum intake
Aerospace Components Ultra 350 GPH fuel pump
Aerospace Components Remote Water pump system

Chassis:
3108# 66 Barracuda
456 gear Dana 60
29.5 x 11.5 MT Tires
Vanishing Point ladder bars
Denny's Drive shaft
FBO Race 727
Dynamic 4700 convertor
 
you are going to be close to 7k on that build, you still need the rest of the power train and suspension to do 10s.

Also what about a roll cage?

Dont must tracks require a cage when you go 10s? Not to mention other safety stuff?
 
Go ahead and build the 318, thats what it sounds like you want to do. If you think a Eddy head 360, properly built wont be stronger than your 318 swirl port with a cam engine, you are seriously lacking in real world experience!! You will be disapointed in the results. At least you can say it was differant anyway.
 
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