1965 Dodge Dart Charger

[Norway-dart]

Ulf has to open a paypal account and then everybody can donate sponsor money to get the car overseas sometime in the future! I think he Owe you that one since he put his build up here on fabo??
I would guesstimate shippingcosts to about $2000 one way...

 

[65dartcharger]

Ulf I had all the letters but you never got back to me.

Hey, I must have missed that! Are they NOS letters? I got two just a while ago but two Ds were for center D on 64 Polara hood!

 

[65dartcharger]

This is how the shifter arm looks like Don! It's 9 1/8" long.

 

[65dartcharger]

While finally been able to work on the exhaust system I found out that the muffler has a cut out from the oval format they were made in. Does anyone know if this is for keeping space towards the left rear frame or towards the prop.shaft? I'm not sure which wayit should be bolted!:banghead:

I also wonder about the nuts on the U-bolt clamps should be pointing up or down?

Thanks FABO for all the help.

 

[gtmopar]

They were off my car. Think they have very minor pitting but they are in good shape. I got rid off all lettering both rears and trunk.

 

[65dartcharger]

They were off my car. Think they have very minor pitting but they are in good shape. I got rid off all lettering both rears and trunk.

Thanks for having me in mind but I cannot use used ones. I might consider it if I cannot find NOS ones. Thanks anyway!

 

[kmccabe56]

While finally been able to work on the exhaust system I found out that the muffler has a cut out from the oval format they were made in. Does anyone know if this is for keeping space towards the left rear frame or towards the prop.shaft? I'm not sure which wayit should be bolted!:banghead:

I also wonder about the nuts on the U-bolt clamps should be pointing up or down?

Thanks FABO for all the help.

The parts catalog "May" have a diagram to answer the muffler orientation question. My vote is that the flat side goes to the frame rail.

If the exhaust system was built up in a jig and stuffed into the car as an assembly, the nuts on the U-bolts would be facing up. If the system was installed piece by piece under the car, the nuts will be on the bottom.

 

[65dartcharger]

The parts catalog "May" have a diagram to answer the muffler orientation question. My vote is that the flat side goes to the frame rail.

If the exhaust system was built up in a jig and stuffed into the car as an assembly, the nuts on the U-bolts would be facing up. If the system was installed piece by piece under the car, the nuts will be on the bottom.

Awesome information! Thank you so much Kevin! Now I need to found an assembly line worker to get the answer. I think the last piece by piece work was the way they did it! It would take alot of space holding mounted exhaust system in part bins.

If I just could find the issue that this article was in would be fine. Anyone can see what the newspaper is?

 

[slantsixdan]

I think the last piece by piece work was the way they did it! It would take alot of space holding mounted exhaust system in part bins.

Ulf, who said the exhaust installation necessarily involved parts bins? It's easy to make a convincing case for whatever guess/assumption might spring to mind. Don't guess/assume unless you have exhausted (hah!) every reasonable avenue for learning the actual answer and so are left with no other choice.

(nifty newspaper article)

 

[Clroads]

The flat is for emergency brake cable clearance (outside) I believe.
You can check with Accurate on the flat and clamp up/down also

 

[65dartcharger]

The flat is for emergency brake cable clearance (outside) I believe.
You can check with Accurate on the flat and clamp up/down also

Thanks for the input. I will contact Accurate today to see if they have any answers about this. I also started to contact my old contacts who used to work for Chrysler. Unfortunately they arn't too many still alive today!

I also sent questions to the big dog restorers to get some ideas.

Dan! Thanks for the input. I just did some thoughts about it but you are so true. Facts is what counts.

 

[65dartcharger]

Two top restorers has the same experience, nuts down!

But I got this interesting answer from Kurt (66Dvert) who used to work for a Chrysler dealership between 64 and 67.

ahh to get back to your question. let's say "yes". ok done being a smart a$$ but yes they were Mostly pointed down. depending if you were a short person or a taller person made the difference of the angle. taller = more angled shorter = yup down. the last year I was there I hear they were changing over to a different process so that you could rotate the unibody to get things like that done easier, working in a trench or elevated traversway "sucked". when I got to visit a couple of plants I saw 3 or 4 different ways of installing the same part on different cars. they used pit's trenches, elevates chain ways, rotating platforms and others. it seemed like Jefferson assembly, Dodge truck, Dodge main all did it differently by using different vendors for their machinery. nothing in those plants were ergonomic, just put the darn part on and do it AGAIN all day. whew.

At the dealership if we had to replace or repair the exhaust system we'd always put it down "ish" and have to use a paint marker to daub the nuts "red/orange" color showing that we (the dealership) did it., it was nice working on newer cars since they were not too rusty yet. some of the 60-63's were already rusting away in salty Michigan winters

I think the only one we HAD to do upside down and angled towards the driveshaft was the 67 new yorker/newport extension pipe in front of the muffler so it didn't hit the floor pan dimples for the rear foot well .
then they put me in the sheet metal section, (yahoo a pay raise to $1.21 an hour from $0.97). then Freuhauf trailers called me in to work at their plant in for truck trailers, better pay and $1.25 plus benefits. bought my first "new ish" car,less than 2 year old to me was new (yup a 66 dart convertible/6 auto with only 71 miles on it!!) after that I went to the Chrysler plants.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Kurt. That was invalueable information. Re the paint markings, were they made for the reason that Chrysler did that at the plant or just something the dealer should do?

 

[65dartcharger]

Today the work was into getting the trunk lid done. The holes for the centered letters was tejped as it should. The lower moulding was added after finding out that there is two sizes of clips. It seems that they mixed them too! The bigger size is siver painted and the smaller ones are painted green. The silver clips has a black insulation while the green clips has a white/grayish color on the insulation.

All clips was glass beaded and new coat of paint with insulation.

The nuts was placed on the letters to get the hole for the screw after the plasticote has come together and dried.

Tomorrow the last thing will be to get the nuts back in place.

 

[66Dvert]

While finally been able to work on the exhaust system I found out that the muffler has a cut out from the oval format they were made in. Does anyone know if this is for keeping space towards the left rear frame or towards the prop.shaft? I'm not sure which wayit should be bolted!:banghead:

I also wonder about the nuts on the U-bolt clamps should be pointing up or down?

Thanks FABO for all the help.

ahhh now I see, they originally were supposed to have that cutout to keep heat away from the brake lines. I have seen them both ways from the factory and was once told by the manager of the dealership that they went cutout =out towards frame.
the majority of cars we saw had them facing in towards the drive shaft though and we were told to change the cutout side if they hit the brake lines (or were closer than 1 inch) when we shook the pipes to check for tightness. I hated winter time, it sucked doing this since all the road muck would fall in your face when you shook the pipes.
B- bodies also had the cutout but only for 4 doors for some reason and they went IN. I know that most 67 cars did not have any cutouts on the muffler but big block Chargers had a piece of L shaped metal on the same corner that the brake line bend was.
I did exhaust (lots and lots of them),shocks, short block builds and transmission R&R only (another guy rebuilt the transmissions) I was too slow rebuilding the transmissions so I was just "grunt the mule" for the trans guys putting them back in.
If I got 5 exhaust jobs done in a day I would get an extra 5 bucks in my check for every day I did that.



as for the paint daubs
the paint markings were something the dealer would do. that's to make sure we tightened up all the nuts and sealed the system. That was every car that came in,you would be shocked on how many cars had just 1 nut tightened on the exhaust. now it's called dealer prep or some such thing. we caught hell if we missed anything.
I saw the factory (jefferson assembly) putting the exhaust from the Y pipe at the engine to the muffler if it was in front of the axle in while it was in one piece. it was upside down in a jig and then the over the axle pipe was installed and hung. took 2 people to do that. 1 holding and one bolting it up then swapping places so they didn't do the same thing each time. (still looked sucky to do)

that sure brings up some pretty good memories. I had lots of fun until they changed owners. Then it was money ,money, cut costs, do more and nope I'm not paying you more for doing it. I left after that.

 

[65dartcharger]

ahhh now I see, they originally were supposed to have that cutout to keep heat away from the brake lines. I have seen them both ways from the factory and was once told by the manager of the dealership that they went cutout =out towards frame.
the majority of cars we saw had them facing in towards the drive shaft though and we were told to change the cutout side if they hit the brake lines (or were closer than 1 inch) when we shook the pipes to check for tightness. I hated winter time, it sucked doing this since all the road muck would fall in your face when you shook the pipes.
B- bodies also had the cutout but only for 4 doors for some reason and they went IN. I know that most 67 cars did not have any cutouts on the muffler but big block Chargers had a piece of L shaped metal on the same corner that the brake line bend was.
I did exhaust (lots and lots of them),shocks, short block builds and transmission R&R only (another guy rebuilt the transmissions) I was too slow rebuilding the transmissions so I was just "grunt the mule" for the trans guys putting them back in.
If I got 5 exhaust jobs done in a day I would get an extra 5 bucks in my check for every day I did that.



as for the paint daubs
the paint markings were something the dealer would do. that's to make sure we tightened up all the nuts and sealed the system. That was every car that came in,you would be shocked on how many cars had just 1 nut tightened on the exhaust. now it's called dealer prep or some such thing. we caught hell if we missed anything.
I saw the factory (jefferson assembly) putting the exhaust from the Y pipe at the engine to the muffler if it was in front of the axle in while it was in one piece. it was upside down in a jig and then the over the axle pipe was installed and hung. took 2 people to do that. 1 holding and one bolting it up then swapping places so they didn't do the same thing each time. (still looked sucky to do)

that sure brings up some pretty good memories. I had lots of fun until they changed owners. Then it was money ,money, cut costs, do more and nope I'm not paying you more for doing it. I left after that.[/QUOTE

Thank you so much for the information. Your information is so valuable to me during the restoration. Do you remember what finsj the front and rear brake drums had? Also if the steering linkage had any paint marks?

 

[66Dvert]

ahhh now I see, they originally were supposed to have that cutout to keep heat away from the brake lines. I have seen them both ways from the factory and was once told by the manager of the dealership that they went cutout =out towards frame.
the majority of cars we saw had them facing in towards the drive shaft though and we were told to change the cutout side if they hit the brake lines (or were closer than 1 inch) when we shook the pipes to check for tightness. I hated winter time, it sucked doing this since all the road muck would fall in your face when you shook the pipes.
B- bodies also had the cutout but only for 4 doors for some reason and they went IN. I know that most 67 cars did not have any cutouts on the muffler but big block Chargers had a piece of L shaped metal on the same corner that the brake line bend was.
I did exhaust (lots and lots of them),shocks, short block builds and transmission R&R only (another guy rebuilt the transmissions) I was too slow rebuilding the transmissions so I was just "grunt the mule" for the trans guys putting them back in.
If I got 5 exhaust jobs done in a day I would get an extra 5 bucks in my check for every day I did that.



as for the paint daubs
the paint markings were something the dealer would do. that's to make sure we tightened up all the nuts and sealed the system. That was every car that came in,you would be shocked on how many cars had just 1 nut tightened on the exhaust. now it's called dealer prep or some such thing. we caught hell if we missed anything.
I saw the factory (jefferson assembly) putting the exhaust from the Y pipe at the engine to the muffler if it was in front of the axle in while it was in one piece. it was upside down in a jig and then the over the axle pipe was installed and hung. took 2 people to do that. 1 holding and one bolting it up then swapping places so they didn't do the same thing each time. (still looked sucky to do)

that sure brings up some pretty good memories. I had lots of fun until they changed owners. Then it was money ,money, cut costs, do more and nope I'm not paying you more for doing it. I left after that.[/QUOTE

Thank you so much for the information. Your information is so valuable to me during the restoration. Do you remember what finsj the front and rear brake drums had? Also if the steering linkage had any paint marks?

I can't remember why what type of fins or not went on the brake drums. I know in 65-67 most of the 9" had no fins at all on the front (some had springs wrapped around the drum) and for the 10's some of them had a bell shape a few had fins and mostly on the rear high performance cars got them all the way around or got disc up front and bigger rear drums . but for the life of me I can't remember why.

paint markings on the front steering were done at the factory and we never looked real close at them other than noticing if it was GT power steering the pitman arm had an orange daub in the end of the flat part going into the draglink, arm facing UP towards the engine compartment. sometimes it dripped- slopped over to the draglink itself. NEVER did see it on a 270 or lower trim type car only on GT's with power steering. the problem with that was it was the EXACT same gearbox that went into all the power steering cars and not ALL the GT's had the paint daub. it could have been a shift marking or a line marking to let someone know what shift/line ran the sub assembly. sorry I coud not be of more help.

Now ask me about any glass from ma mopar from 1972-2003 and I can help (other than I NEVER, Ever want to lift another 64-66 barracuda real window (called a "backlight DUH!:banghead: and yeah we were still mkaing all the glass for the early A's as late as july 1973)
heavy and Awkward as all get out. A b$tch to break even as soon as they come out of the quenches to cool down. we usually had to center punch em (heck a ball peen hammer would hardly break them if you didn't use all your strength and whack them on the edge)to get them to break. tough buggers they were.

BTW the car looks AWESOME.

 

[slantsixdan]

I can't remember why what type of fins or not went on the brake drums. I know in 65-67 most of the 9" had no fins at all on the front

The finned 9" drums were mid-'70 thru '73.

(some had springs wrapped around the drum)

Anti-squeak noise dampers. P/N 2266 298 (for 9" drums), standard equipment starting in '62 and running through '70 -- there's no groove for the noise damper on the finned '70-'73 drum.

and for the 10's some of them had a bell shape

Flared-rim 10" drum, rear only, for improved water exclusion and heat rejection. Don't recall what year that started on the A-body, possibly '70—can check next time I'm near my ESF collection.

a few had fins and mostly on the rear

I am pretty sure A-bodies never got finned rear drums.

Now ask me about any glass from ma mopar from 1972-2003

OK: How'm I going to find a good American-made DW1057 windshield for my '91 Spirit?! Everything's gone Chinese, and even if I manage to get one without optical distortion, it's a safe bet the Chinese auto glass makers cheat and lie on their safety standards compliance "certifications" just like they do with headlamps, brakes, tires, etc. (PM me if you can help; I don't wanna severely hijack Ulf's thread)

 

[66Dvert]

The finned 9" drums were mid-'70 thru '73.



Anti-squeak noise dampers. P/N 2266 298 (for 9" drums), standard equipment starting in '62 and running through '70 -- there's no groove for the noise damper on the finned '70-'73 drum.



Flared-rim 10" drum, rear only, for improved water exclusion and heat rejection. Don't recall what year that started on the A-body, possibly '70—can check next time I'm near my ESF collection.



I am pretty sure A-bodies never got finned rear drums.



OK: How'm I going to find a good American-made DW1057 windshield for my '91 Spirit?! Everything's gone Chinese, and even if I manage to get one without optical distortion, it's a safe bet the Chinese auto glass makers cheat and lie on their safety standards compliance "certifications" just like they do with headlamps, brakes, tires, etc. (PM me if you can help; I don't wanna severely hijack Ulf's thread)

darn 91 Spirit. nope you are not going to find an american made windshield. PPG does not make them anymore and PGW outsources them from china. Chryslers Mcgraw glass plant was closed 3 years after I retired from that job due to Diamler wanting to outsource all parts making operations. Best you can hope for is a Colorado (less or no salt /sand blasted)or western state low mileage windshields car you can part out.

the part about the spec's for the windshields is the vinyl (better/thicker vinyl better safety) that goes in between the windshields that glues the 2 bent (un-heat treated) pieces of glass is the only spec. they worry about. there is a ball drop test they do. the 1 foot metal ball is 2 ft above the glass and it should not go through the windshield. "mostly" they pass that spec and yeah china is on the lower end always , but even in 2003 they were getting a little better though. thicker glass and thicker vinyl = a safer piece.


As for distortion and vendors , don't accept that part EVER. with the technology available (even China) to make acceptable parts you don't have to accept a substandard part. the glass WILL be slightly thinner than the original since they are going the cheapest route though.




ok enough hijacking the thread

back to that beautiful restoration of 65dartchargers car

 

[65dartcharger]

Thank you so much for the info. That explains why my car had some orange paint on the pitman arm! I know late sixties and early seventies cars had paint splots but the paint was the same as paint used on cars. But they must have used other colors too. The three digit code on the rear axle tube is school bus yellow! No production color for sure!

I did not find any color markings on the rear leaf spring packages. I know 68 and up had paint markings on the front ends for easier assembly work. Do you remember any panit markings on them or the rear shocks? Both standards and HD shocks were all panited black. Something must have separated them like a paint splot!

 

[66Dvert]

Thank you so much for the info. That explains why my car had some orange paint on the pitman arm! I know late sixties and early seventies cars had paint splots but the paint was the same as paint used on cars. But they must have used other colors too. The three digit code on the rear axle tube is school bus yellow! No production color for sure!

I did not find any color markings on the rear leaf spring packages. I know 68 and up had paint markings on the front ends for easier assembly work. Do you remember any panit markings on them or the rear shocks? Both standards and HD shocks were all panited black. Something must have separated them like a paint splot!

I don't recall seeing paint on early A's for the rear ends and springs. (but I never looked real hard either.) but I do know they used orange,red,light blue, bright green and bright yellow as marking codes on some parts (Green,blue and red were from me watching shift marks 1st second or 3rd shift) I mostly saw Green for 1st shift and blue for second shift.
The shocks were a Bin only difference as far as I saw when I did walk through (s) at Jefferson. They(the workers) looked at the cards stuck on the car and went to the bin for the shocks and bolts. rear ends already had the springs,brake lines and if required rubber snubbers attached and were jacked up into position then bolted on. front k members were raised to the body complete with engine/transmission and wiring attached to it. (or the car was lowered over it and the rear end too, they were jig mounted and over a walking pit. Depending on the specific assembly line that they were using, 2 of the 3 lines I was allowed to watch lowered them to the k member, 1 raised it) it was nothing like current days assembly line it was a LOT of manual labor and overhead reaching work putting on parts. I must have spent nearly 3 weeks (all (12) of the mechanic's and (6) body men rotated going to the plant) going to the plant and just watching them put together cars . It helped us figure out how and what to remove to replace parts needed repairing a lot easier.

 

[65dartcharger]

I don't recall seeing paint on early A's for the rear ends and springs. (but I never looked real hard either.) but I do know they used orange,red,light blue, bright green and bright yellow as marking codes on some parts (Green,blue and red were from me watching shift marks 1st second or 3rd shift) I mostly saw Green for 1st shift and blue for second shift.
The shocks were a Bin only difference as far as I saw when I did walk through (s) at Jefferson. They(the workers) looked at the cards stuck on the car and went to the bin for the shocks and bolts. rear ends already had the springs,brake lines and if required rubber snubbers attached and were jacked up into position then bolted on. front k members were raised to the body complete with engine/transmission and wiring attached to it. (or the car was lowered over it and the rear end too, they were jig mounted and over a walking pit. Depending on the specific assembly line that they were using, 2 of the 3 lines I was allowed to watch lowered them to the k member, 1 raised it) it was nothing like current days assembly line it was a LOT of manual labor and overhead reaching work putting on parts. I must have spent nearly 3 weeks (all (12) of the mechanic's and (6) body men rotated going to the plant) going to the plant and just watching them put together cars . It helped us figure out how and what to remove to replace parts needed repairing a lot easier.

What was the reason for adding different paint splots for different shift teams? Were the paint splots added after a bolt or nut was tightened to right specs? or some other reason?

Were the part bins marked with the right part number card in front? That might seen reasonable due to the fact that Chrysler later started with the paint markings for faster assembly. But I'm not sure about that!

 

[66Dvert]

What was the reason for adding different paint splots for different shift teams? Were the paint splots added after a bolt or nut was tightened to right specs? or some other reason?

Were the part bins marked with the right part number card in front? That might seen reasonable due to the fact that Chrysler later started with the paint markings for faster assembly. But I'm not sure about that!

truth is that it was to blame that shift if something went wrong. That is not how they phrased it but that's what it was for. they said it was to verify how many and what types of cars got moved down the line and not into the repair bays so that they could find out problems and correct them.
most of the inspectors had a different color wax crayon(yellow or red mostly) that they ticked of each sections operations. so if you see a yellow or red crayon mark on the interior behind the panels that's an inspection mark for that section of parts being put on. engone bays usually had white crayons or yellow depending on the color of the car. but all the rest had red or yellow check marks or circles or a line(check marks -=ok ,circles= repair bay line = done fixed from repair bay) it was the same at Trenton engine with the crayon markings for the engines too (at least in the late 70's when I got bumped out of the glass plant for 3 years)

each dark blue bin was about 4 ft. by 4 ft and 3 ft tall. with a white 6 inch tall number painted on it (all 4 sides and the top panel had the paper sticker with the same number on it) for each different part. I remember the shocks because a hi-lo driver knocked over a full bin of them and they jammed the assembly line for over 30 minutes. yeah the guy got time off right away too! Man the foremen were PISSED at him and some of the line workers were throwing them in a different bin when they got there and went ballistic. the foremen made them take down both bins and put 2 new ones up while the line was down and they had to sort by the little bitty part numbers on the shocks in BOTH bins, there were a LOT of shocks in those bins. I was glad I didn't have to sort them out.

I also saw them run the forks through a rack of 50 windshields, drop a pallet of engines off the railroad car and drive off the end of the loading dock without a truck being there to drive into the same day, I think they fired that guy. Hi-lo drivers got away with a lot in the mid 60's and early 70's.

72-ish till 2003 I worked at 3 different plants. McGraw glass plant (yup made them 64-66 barracuda rear backlights all they way till 1976) Trenton engine and last and least Jefferson assembly 10 years after i visited it as a dealership mechanic it still hadn't changed except to get ummm more dangerous to go to and from work (and that was inside the plant and parking lot.) I was pulled back to the glass plant in about 10 months. I would not have lasted much longer at Jefferson assembly.

 

[slantsixdan]

a hi-lo driver knocked over a full bin of them…I also saw them run the forks through a rack of 50 windshields, drop a pallet of engines off the railroad car and drive off the end of the loading dock without a truck being there to drive into the same day, I think they fired that guy. Hi-lo drivers got away with a lot in the mid 60's and early 70's.

I understand there were big drug problems in the assembly plants in those days, too.

 

[toolmanmike]

I've heard those stories too Dan. After all it was the 70's

 

[65dartcharger]

truth is that it was to blame that shift if something went wrong. That is not how they phrased it but that's what it was for. they said it was to verify how many and what types of cars got moved down the line and not into the repair bays so that they could find out problems and correct them.
most of the inspectors had a different color wax crayon(yellow or red mostly) that they ticked of each sections operations. so if you see a yellow or red crayon mark on the interior behind the panels that's an inspection mark for that section of parts being put on. engone bays usually had white crayons or yellow depending on the color of the car. but all the rest had red or yellow check marks or circles or a line(check marks -=ok ,circles= repair bay line = done fixed from repair bay) it was the same at Trenton engine with the crayon markings for the engines too (at least in the late 70's when I got bumped out of the glass plant for 3 years)

each dark blue bin was about 4 ft. by 4 ft and 3 ft tall. with a white 6 inch tall number painted on it (all 4 sides and the top panel had the paper sticker with the same number on it) for each different part. I remember the shocks because a hi-lo driver knocked over a full bin of them and they jammed the assembly line for over 30 minutes. yeah the guy got time off right away too! Man the foremen were PISSED at him and some of the line workers were throwing them in a different bin when they got there and went ballistic. the foremen made them take down both bins and put 2 new ones up while the line was down and they had to sort by the little bitty part numbers on the shocks in BOTH bins, there were a LOT of shocks in those bins. I was glad I didn't have to sort them out.

I also saw them run the forks through a rack of 50 windshields, drop a pallet of engines off the railroad car and drive off the end of the loading dock without a truck being there to drive into the same day, I think they fired that guy. Hi-lo drivers got away with a lot in the mid 60's and early 70's.

72-ish till 2003 I worked at 3 different plants. McGraw glass plant (yup made them 64-66 barracuda rear backlights all they way till 1976) Trenton engine and last and least Jefferson assembly 10 years after i visited it as a dealership mechanic it still hadn't changed except to get ummm more dangerous to go to and from work (and that was inside the plant and parking lot.) I was pulled back to the glass plant in about 10 months. I would not have lasted much longer at Jefferson assembly.

I must admit that it's a total privilage reading the stories from back in the day. It is so facinating to take part of the history behind our cars.

Re circles in the engine bay I found a minus sign with a circle around. What was the meaning of that sign? On the prop.shaft there was a long black marking along the rear end of the shaft. Any ideas what it meant?