Anyone running a hydraulic clutch with their 833?

[johnparts]

Hey guys I'm picking up my trans sunday and it includes all the z bar stuff but I was thinking of running a hydraulic set-up and hoping someone has done this and can point me in the direction of who makes a good affordable set-up. Pictures would be nice too.

 

[6dart9]

I got the one from chucksclassiccars.com. It can be done cheaper however if you need pics pm me. If you go with chucks you will need a b-body big block fork and bell housing pivot so keep that in mind when looking at the price. Chuck swears it will work with the a body fork but it doesn't.

 

[mullinax95]

I really was thinking about it but figured I was biting off more that I could chew at the moment. I like the fact that you don't have to adjust the hydro clutch and also the foot pressure is a little less demanding. They are sweet to have.... go for it.

 

[rapom65]

I have a Lakewood bell housing, TTI headers, the stock Z bar set up and an iron case OD 883. Just too many issues getting it all working together. I've researched the crap out of this for the last six months and come to the conclusion that a pull type slave cylinder is the best and most durable option. I've got a ton of pictures and info on the different systems guys have devised but have never posted any pictures or links before. Give me some time to figure it out and I'll post it all for you. Any help here would speed this up tremendously!

 

[pauly v.100]

a couple search results:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=33640&highlight=hydraulic+clutch

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=40229&highlight=hydraulic+clutch

 

[rapom65]

I have a Lakewood bell housing, TTI headers, the stock Z bar set up and an iron case OD 883. Just too many issues getting it all working together. I've researched the crap out of this for the last six months and come to the conclusion that a pull type slave cylinder is the best and most durable option. I've got a ton of pictures and info on the different systems guys have devised but have never posted any pictures or links before. Give me some time to figure it out and I'll post it all for you. Any help here would speed this up tremendously!

Ok, think I have pics figured out. There may be more but I've identified 3 ways to accomplish a hyd clutch conversion. Starting with the set up I'm going to go with, the pull slave cylinder, then there is a push slave cylinder and several variations of a hyd throwout bearing.
GENERAL INFO: All get rid of the stock linkage and Z bar. All require locating and drilling holes in the firewall to mount a master cylinder next to your brake master and attaching it to the clutch pedal. You have to rig an offset mounting system to attach the clutch pedal to the master cylinder as it is not inline with the pedal like a brake master is. From my research the proper mounting point is 2" below the pivot point of the clutch pedal. Most people remove the over-centering spring for a diaphragm type clutch but leave it on for a three finger type. Most of the aftermarket master cylinder kits come with remote and master mounted reservoirs which gives options for servicing. The master cylinder should be matched to the needs of the slave cylinder, ie, bore size and volume needed to actuate the slave through its range of motion. Also insure the slave has enough movement to fully actuate the clutch fork. A hyd line connects the master to the slave cylinder/throwout bearing. These can be hard line, braided line or high pressure rubber (some have used brake lines). On a pull type slave one end is attached to the clutch fork backwards from normal using the stock hardware (beveled bushing and nut) and the other end to a hiem bearing, bolt and piece of U channel bolted to the front of the trans cross member using two of the cross member bolts. It pulls the clutch fork rearward when actuated. A push type slave it is mounted on the side of the bell housing and pushes the clutch fork back like a stock Z bar setup. This requires a really compact slave cylinder and as far as I'm concerned has too many issues. I'll do a pros/cons comparison latter. A hyd throwout bearing just replaces the stock throwout bearing and gets rid of the clutch fork.
Pics of a pull slave setup:

 

[rapom65]

THANK YOU pauly v.100 you just saved me tons of work. I was trying to link both of those threads and now I don't have to!

To continue: The master cylinder will need a reinforcement plate on the interior side of the firewall or you will work the thin sheet metal back and forth with the clutch pedal until it cracks. One last thing you will have to do is rig a stop on the clutch pedal so you don't force the slave past what is needed to disengage the clutch.

Pros and Cons:
There are several throwout bearing kits out but they are in the $650 range. This is a clean and simple solution. The issue I have with this option is if the throwout bearing or it's connection to the pressure line starts to leak, guess what your going to spend a weekend doing? Pulling the trans and possibly a bell housing to get to it. I helped a friend with his Kiesler 5 speed install and the first time he pushed the clutch in fluid started pouring out of the bell housing. Got the wrong throwout bearing in the kit and blew the seals. Out came the motor and trans, again. NO THANKS....

The push slave has possibilities. If you look through the threads pauly posted above plus the one on bigblockdart.com they give you several different setups and parts lists to try. My issues with these are: 1) requires a lot of diddling fabricating a mounting bracket. 2) interference issues with a stock starter eliminates getting a straight throw on the clutch fork. A mini starter may solve this issue but my mock up experiments didn't prove successful. (Lakewood housing) 3) proximity to headers. Overtime the heat is really going to cook the slave cylinder. An effective heat shield would be an interesting feat in the limited space. 4) may have to shorten the clutch fork to get enough throw due to the small slave needed due to space available. 5) needs a return spring jammed in there some where too!

The pull slave would also be close to the header but not nearly as much as a push slave. I believe there will be better air flow around it and there is room for a heat shield if desired. Fabbing a mounting bracket is easy, the install simple and access for adjustment more open. I found a master with the return spring built in and a push slave cylinder at Speedway.com for less than $80 total.

Hope this helps.

 

[pauly v.100]

nice write-up and pics rapom. i still like the chucks kit but its so damn exspensive, i might look into single peice sourcing it all from wilwood. i also think a simple peice of heat wrap material would solve any heat issues with the push type slave. i really like chucks slave mount set-up that allows the slave to pivot a little bit to allow for movement.

http://www.chucksclassiccars.com/index.php?cruising=products&item=HYC833&category=Specials

 

[rapom65]

Yeah Chucks got a nice kit with everything you need to install a hyd clutch in one package. He makes ya bend over for it a bit though! Not near as much as Kiesler's hyd throwout bearing kit. I nearly crapped my diaper when I saw the price when it came out on the market. Chuck's is also a pull salve setup but he mounts the cylinder to the trans with a nice aluminum bracket instead of the trans crossmember like I want to do. Someone said that would keep it from binding when your motor/trans torques over. Man if your drive train is moving that much you have some issues with your mounts! I think the heim joint at the crossmember bracket will allow plenty of freedom and is a cheaper alternative. I think I can do the entire clutch kit for less than $125 to include shipping on the parts. Speedway.com has a closeout on a master cylinder by U.S. BRAKE with a stainless steel liner in the bore, a built in return spring, 3 different reservoirs for like $48 and a matched pull slave for $36. All I need is a high pressure line to connect them. But I really like to do research, design and build stuff and my car is way off from being done.

 

[theclutcher]

here is a pic of a hydraulic to bearing and master cyl assembly.
worked fine, easy install.

 

[memike]

here is a pic of a hydraulic to bearing and master cyl assembly.
worked fine, easy install.

This is the kind my son used on his dirt track car and said he could get one for my slant trans =P~=P~:happy10:

 

[johnparts]

Thanks for all the info and pictures guys since I am working on a budget I am going to go the napa parts route so I will post when I start fabbing it up

 

[fstfish66]

napa????? not sure they carry any thing try speed way motors they have all the parts seperatly,,,,thats how i did it,,

 

[8Barrel]

I just bought a hydraulic slave setup from Brewer's today. My car is in for body work now, but I plan on mocking up my transmission/clutch off the car to make sure everything works together. I will be using a Lakewood bellhousing and McLeod pressure plate and disc. This will be on a Magnum 360 in a '68 Dart. Not sure when I'll get a chance, but when I do it I'll take pictures and revisit this thread.

 

[rapom65]

Hey 8barrel, please post some pics and a write up on your set up. I didn't know Brewers had a kit so I for one would be very interested in some info on it.

 

[8Barrel]

Hey 8barrel, please post some pics and a write up on your set up. I didn't know Brewers had a kit so I for one would be very interested in some info on it.

Got the kit...it is the Chuck's kit, just sold by Brewers. Looks pretty easy to install. I need to swap the A-body tail housing I have onto my B/E trans before I do anything, though.

 

[fstfish66]

here is a pic of a hydraulic to bearing and master cyl assembly.
worked fine, easy install.

whos kit is this ??? looks intresting, and is the throw out bearing adjustable??

 

[70DusterDev]

Has anyone done this with power brakes? Does the booster get in the way of the clutch master cylinder without relocating it?

 

[theclutcher]

whos kit is this ??? looks intresting, and is the throw out bearing adjustable??

Mcleod thro out bearing , fits 18 spline.
It is adjustable, I believe they offer it for 23 spline also.
Cnc pedal assembly.

 

[rapom65]

Reposting pictures of the hydraulic pull slave and master cylinder setup from my earlier post:

 

[mopardude318]

looks good man. if you could repost some of the other attached pictures it would be nice. they were lost when the site was rebuilt a while ago...I'm very interested in a hydraulic setup for my 70 dart....

 

[340plot]

i have the chucks cladssic in my car now. the pedal is horribly hard. just as bad a the stock stuff. some said i should raies it up where it is mounted to the pedal. maybe. but if i go up higher with it, then it does not line up correctly under the hood. no flat spot to mount it.

now i read that i am supposed to use a different clutch fork. what is up with that?
what is the length difference in them? or i should ask, what is different about them?

 

[R3dplanet]

Right.

I bought Chuck's kit also and it stayed in my car for about an hour. Outside of the car on a test rig the slave would compress as you would expect. But when I installed it in the car it would just not budge. Totally stuck.

After my mechanic looked at it he gave up after a day of trying.

Finally I just gave up on it and bought a new z-bar linkage setup from Brewer's. Strangely, when I installed the new z-bar it wouldn't actuate either. I called Brewer's and they gave me the whole story: if you go to a larger bell housing from a smaller one, and I did (from a 9" to 10.5") then you need the longer clutch fork and correct pivot. I knew about the pivot. I didn't know about the fork. The Brewer's part number for the fork is CF702N if you have an early-A like I do. The longer fork is something like 10 7/8" in length. I bought the longer fork and pivot and it solved everything. By then I was irritated with the hydraulic setup, and the new z-bar was already in place, so now the whole kit is sitting in a soupy mess in my garage.

Two problems here:

(1) We go round-robin from where we started. The original poster needs more room for headers, but the increased fork length could still interfere if you have the larger bell housing, but it would probably less difficult than the z-bar linkage.

(2) Chuck didn't know about the fork length issue. Instead, he told me that it would work regardless of the length. He wasn't trying to screw with me. He just really didn't know. I let him know about that and he understood.

What happens is that the way the aluminum slave cylinder mount bolts to the transmission leaves no room for slop, and thankfully so. If the fork and pivot are in the wrong place, it effectively wedges the slave pushrod and won't allow it to move. Just by looking it at you wouldn't be able to tell, so its a bit spooky.

The other thing I didn't like was that if you mount the master cylinder in the stock location, the total clutch pedal travel is about three inches. The only way out of that is to somehow mount the master cylinder way up high in the firewall right near the apex of the pedal. I mentioned this to Chuck and he sent me a nice bracket that would mount the master cylinder inside the cabin at a steep angle to solve the problem, otherwise at that height the master cylinder would sit right in the face of the master brake cylinder. I have power brakes, so that wouldn't work. The new mounting bracket is not so easy to install in such a tight environment. So difficult in fact that one would be better off removing the pedal cluster and installing it with everything else out of the way.

Anyway, these are lessons learned from my ill-fated install. Hopefully it will help others. I wish I had found a way to get it installed on my car because I love the benefits.

In other news, if anyone wants to buy my (slightly used) kit plus the adapter plate I'm willing to part with it for $250. PM me if interested.

-marcus

 

[pauly v.100]

Thanks for the update and excellent writeup/analysis.
If i didn't have such a long "need to get" list I'd probably take that Chuck's setup off your hands, but i'm still pretty far aways from that part of my build right now.

 

[fstfish66]

ive seen and talked to chuck,,he said he had installed hundreds of thses units,,,,

i had a hy set up from tilton,,used a nascar throw out bearing,, for about 10 years,,,, long story,,it worked but was on the edge of not working propery,,,ate up a syncro,,,

i basically buolt my own unit with some of the parts being the same as used in chucks kit,,,but a differnt master cylinder,, the one in chucks kit wouldnt move a stock length fork,,,

i used a master made for hyd clutch from wilwood,,

i also make my own brackets for the slave styled after the ones pictured in the upper pics posted by rapom 65 mounting the slave off of the trans cross member using a puller slave clyinder,,

the most important thing is the amount of fluid you can move in your system,,and the master has to be mounted properly to do that,,most guys just seem to mount the master where ever for what ever reason,,

you have to have maximum travel of the master push rod,straight,,not on an angel,,, if mounting the master in line with your brake master is a problem,,because of power brakes, you can move the master over as long as still parrell to the brake master push rod,,,and make a bracket off the pedal arm to reach the push rod,,as i did,,,, in my car the speedo cable hole was perfectly in line,,i just enlargened it,,and relocated the speedo cable entry,,,

the clutch master push rod pivot point is 1 1/2 minumun to 2 inches max down from the pedal pivot point(SUPER INPORTANT).

if non of thses wrks for you,,you can get a master from keisler that mounts in the clutch pedal push rod hole and is designed to work on an angle,,just costs more that way but is a great looking unit,,, im thinking on the new keisler 5 speed if i do go with it ill use there master,,