Cheepy Three-Sixty build

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rumblefish360 said:
RAMM, totally digging the build and idea of use of spare parts hanging around. I think I might try this myself. I have plenty of garbage on the wall collecting dust. Not so sure I wanna post the build though.
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I really hate waste, probably why I over eat-never leave anything on the plate to throw out is programmed into me. If I have parts then I want to see them used somehow someway. Go for it, what's the worst that can happen? J.Rob
 
YoloCtyFlash said:
In a build like this, are the stock Magnum rockers good enough?, not so good ?...... Thanks.
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Stock Magnum rockers would more than be up to the task. I like the paired fulcrum design better than the Chev style single rocker stud arrangement. J.Rob
 
RAMM said:
I really hate waste, probably why I over eat-never leave anything on the plate to throw out is programmed into me. If I have parts then I want to see them used somehow someway. Go for it, what's the worst that can happen? J.Rob
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The worst that can happen?

LMAO

Yet another internet asshole picks it apart, craps on your work, degrades all efforts made while his engine was built by a pro or still sits disassembled.

In all honestly, it's just annoying.
Comments that don't apply on or make sense. Mostly do from there lack of reading or understanding what they read.

Some of the best examples are like;

Them: Why didn't you use a Holley.
Me: I don't have one.
Them: why didn't you get one?
Me: What's wrong my with the one I have?
Them: It's not a Holley!
Me: What's the big deal?
Them; Your giving up HP!!! DUH!!!

Really?!?!?!?!?

I'm not really sure I'll miss the hp in the street driving by around town and down the Hwy at 2700 rpm. Is it really worth spending another $400? For a few hp more that seldom gets seen?

I get PM'd I'm an asshole for not making use of a Holley. I'm an asshole for not using "***" cam.
I'm an asshole for ......

So why should I open myself up for more abuse? Share how to's.

I'm going on my 4th engine build and I'm happy to keep it to myself.
 
A builder's perspective has to be different from an owner's. We run into this all the time in our business: you have to do things to protect yourself and insure a good reputation. It'll cost more.

But for one's own project, the weighting and value assigned to some steps changes. Discussing perspective on when things are needed is good IMHO.
 
RAMM said:
It's OK Rumble--no offense taken on my part. I make no apologies for the things I do to MY projects. Your comment about Cheap builds being ones that are done right the first time is very very true. I can't tell you how many times I get a new customer that has already been previously soaked on a build and now I get to pick up the pieces--Oh and the real crappy part is I never get to charge what the previous builder charged either. A good example comes to mind when I built a 318 with EQ heads. His previous "builder" was a hack working out of his garage and charged him something like 16g's for a 318!! That engine didn't make any power and self destructed. He found me and the entire engine was gone through-only thing kept was the oil pan, engine made awesome power and I charged a little over a third of garage guy. J.Rob
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Following other people's work is always a nightmare. Most of the time.
 
Oh good GOD!!! You ain't kidding. Even worse when they know nothing about MoPar or decent mechanical skills.
 
I will say this, Mr. J Rob:

I 150% appreciate this thread and your willingness to share your knowledge and results.

So many people in this hobby and are "sold" on the trick of the month, or high end parts that the Mopar shops say that you "need" to have good power. The fundamentals are often overlooked and that leads to disappointment.

Hats off to you!
 
dusterdoug said:
I will say this, Mr. J Rob:

I 150% appreciate this thread and your willingness to share your knowledge and results.

So many people in this hobby and are "sold" on the trick of the month, or high end parts that the Mopar shops say that you "need" to have good power. The fundamentals are often overlooked and that leads to disappointment.

Hats off to you!
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Agreed...It's already been done....
 
dusterdoug said:
I will say this, Mr. J Rob:

I 150% appreciate this thread and your willingness to share your knowledge and results.

So many people in this hobby and are "sold" on the trick of the month, or high end parts that the Mopar shops say that you "need" to have good power. The fundamentals are often overlooked and that leads to disappointment.

Hats off to you!
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Well said!
 
nm9stheham said:
Well said!
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Thanks. Moving on to the cylinder heads -after taking a bunch of measurements and some quick mock-ups it looks like cracked Magnum heads will be employed with G3 Hemi valves, springs and locks. I have some 5/16 x 3/8" Oldsmobile studs from Comp cams and will use them with Comp's 4825 guide plate and some Chev stamped steel rockers from Melling. I'm backing off on the idea of a roller rocker ATM in order to keep this as cheap as possible. The springs will provide 118 lbs @ 1.700 I.H. and 290 lbs @ 1.200". Pulling the cages off of them gave me the rates I wanted. This valvetrain should be lighter than even the stock Magnum stuff--I'm hoping it will turn the RPM I need. J.Rob

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RAMM said:
Stock Magnum rockers would more than be up to the task. I like the paired fulcrum design better than the Chev style single rocker stud arrangement. J.Rob
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From what I've read the magnum rockers sounded like a solid choice, I tried ordering a set of Mopar Performance magnum rockers from Summit, they were on deep discount, couldn't pass on them, but they ended up on backorder, figures! so I cancelled, wonder if they'll ever be available again??
 
Very good chance I missed it somewhere..... What price range is "cheapy"??? What is the budget here? I know you have access to a machine shop, which is HUGE on cutting out the $$$$$$....
 
318willrun said:
Very good chance I missed it somewhere..... What price range is "cheapy"??? What is the budget here? I know you have access to a machine shop, which is HUGE on cutting out the $$$$$$....
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The budget is as cheap as possible to get the job done. In my mind staying away from things like forged pistons, Eagle/Scat rods, stainless valves, roller rockers, etc.. keeps things far more affordable. This build will be more about what you can do if maybe you take your stuff to a machine shop and know what to ask for, instead of throwing the entire Jeg's or Summit catalog at it. J.Rob
 
RAMM said:
The budget is as cheap as possible to get the job done. In my mind staying away from things like forged pistons, Eagle/Scat rods, stainless valves, roller rockers, etc.. keeps things far more affordable. This build will be more about what you can do if maybe you take your stuff to a machine shop and know what to ask for, instead of throwing the entire Jeg's or Summit catalog at it. J.Rob
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It will be interesting to see total cost, and what it would cost a customer to have the exact machining done that you are doing. Following :)
 
for those that don't know engines would a custom cam based on what a client wants fall into the cheap category.
A quality custom ground cam can be as low as $100 - $75 above a shelf cam.
Cams are often chosen badly the uninformed
 
RAMM said:
Moving on to the cylinder heads -after taking a bunch of measurements and some quick mock-ups it looks like cracked Magnum heads will be employed with G3 Hemi valves, springs and locks.
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It sounds to me you are putting the emphasis on "cracked Magnum heads will be used".
Now almost everybody else will just dispose of them (baah, they're cracked...), but you seem to have a recipe up your sleeve to use them anyway...
Interested.
 
318willrun said:
It will be interesting to see total cost, and what it would cost a customer to have the exact machining done that you are doing. Following :)
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I can't comment on what YOUR machine shop will charge but you certainly can do that homework. Also any of the parts I used are very easy to look up @ places like Summit etc... It would be nice if someone else could figure out parts cost. J.Rob
 
ir3333 said:
for those that don't know engines would a custom cam based on what a client wants fall into the cheap category.
A quality custom ground cam can be as low as $100 - $75 above a shelf cam.
Cams are often chosen badly the uninformed
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I don't know if a custom cam falls into the cheap category because it is still more expensive than an in stock shelf cam. I do know that a client with an odd requirement may need a custom cam though. I know this doesn't answer your question-sorry. J.Rob
 
stixx said:
It sounds to me you are putting the emphasis on "cracked Magnum heads will be used".
Now almost everybody else will just dispose of them (baah, they're cracked...), but you seem to have a recipe up your sleeve to use them anyway...
Interested.
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I didn't really mean to put emphasis on the cracked aspect just that they are the only heads I have ATM. Seats and some Fluidweld will take care of the cracks in most cases. J.Rob
 
rumblefish360 said:
Sometimes thes steps are needed and unavoidable. Doing it now at his shop is of no cost and 100% avoidance prep.
If it were a "No cost to you" issue, you would do it on every engine.
Not checking is nutz!
Checking and knowing it is out of wack and NOT doing anything about it makes the insane asylums look like a serious think tank.
Being to cheap to do anything about it, I can not come up with any descriptions on the insanity of it all.

Cheap builds are builds done right and once. Not over again and again.

How anybody here can take pot shots at RAMM for the machining work done to insure a properly done job is unbelievable.

While YOUR BLOCK may not need any of these steps, these steps taken by the builder should be seen as needed for this block.
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Whoa man take it easy. I wasn't taking any pot shots at anyone. Was just saying if he's got all these parts sitting around, and his own machine shop, then his idea of a cheap build is going to be different than some one doing the same build from scratch and paying for machine work.
 
Oh hey! No worries no worries!!!
Not at your directly, no sir, Sorry bud!

It's just that soooooommmmmeeeee people......
 
my take is for most of us... we drive on the street, back roads, hot roding .... ie cheap , that works.... is the bottom line. smiles for the barest number of $$'''''. bargains that work...... my motivaton.
 
any time any body builds a motor proper prep needs to be done along with proper measuring of every thing! and thats how you figure out what machining needs be done, i dont see any way to build a proper performance motor without some machining!!!! of corse your machine shop bill gonna be affordable if you own a machine shop, no reason get up set bout it! only way to build a motor and not need machine work is if it ant wore out and your doing a stock re build but there ant no since in that is it???

RAMM ??? bout magnum rockers,.are thay self aligning or do thay use a guide plate on the push rods like a shivvy motor? and do thay need a stud girdle in high hp/rpm use too like shivvy???
 
barbee6043 said:
my take is for most of us... we drive on the street, back roads, hot roding .... ie cheap , that works.... is the bottom line. smiles for the barest number of $$'''''. bargains that work...... my motivaton.
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These words I can get behind! Fun really starts to go out the window when the monetary costs get out of hand. It's almost intangible but it is very real. My fave engine ever (aforementioned 360) cost me less than $1000.00 in parts and yet had no right to perform as well as it did. So I figured (incorrectly) that a more powerful engine (408 stroker) would give me a ROI even greater than the previous engine. It did not--not even close. I guess out running WAY more powerful and WAY more expensive big blocks really floats my boat. It's not and never has been just about the engine. I don't want to convolute this thread with the whole car as a combo as it is really about what I consider the bare minimum in order to have a good/great performing engine without fancy, high dollar parts being the primary focus.

I guess in the simplest of terms---go ahead and re-ring/gasket your Craigslist engine for a couple hundred bucks. Or take the same Craigslist core into your local machine shop and give them a decent budget and a cheque to match. Pick your poison.
I'm simply trying to find out even for myself the most effective route to a really good performing engine without ALL of the fancy parts. I'm biased but a properly machined engine should be able to do more with less if ya know what I mean.

You pick up any car rag for the last 15 years or so and you are programmed to believe you NEED forged pistons and a forged crank or your engine will run like crap, be powerless and blow up the first time you lay into it. I know I'm exaggerating but not by much. This thread is just an exercise to illustrate what I consider the bare minimum for a real strong street small block. Nothing more. J.Rob
 
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