...........Hopefully Johnny Law catches up with all the dishonest ppl out there.........and they get what they so rightfully deserve......kim.........
Counterfeit Cars on FABO!!!
- Thread starter Demon 408
- Start date
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daredevil
Well-Known Member
Thats F,ed up.
LH23H2R
Well-Known Member
I also agree 100% with Demon 408's message . I was just creating a hypothetical situation ( albeit , one which I'm considering ) regarding clips , and how that just desiring an earlier -- or later -- model's appearance can be achieved without forgery .
That's one of the (many) great things about our MoPars : they're difficult to forge ; their v.i.n.'s are too conclusive .
See a '71 'Cuda convertible with an "E" as its ***'y plant code ? It's either mis-struck or a forgery , as L.A. didn't build convertibles .
Thanks for the heads-up , 408 Demon :read2:
I am sorry but I believe There is several ways to look at this. First is the feds are trying to deter people / thiefs from putting other vin's from clean cars onto Hot cars. Or in the past Owners insuring there High HP. V-8 or Hemi powered car as a as a /6 to lower there rates. I've seen nation TV shows where Repopped bodies being made and the vin's are used from a existing early car (Camaro). Or a Hemi Charger That was Totally Shot every peice was unusable. That car was totally rebuilt around the vin. Even to the point where one of the vins was restamped. Just to save a one of one car and this was nationally broadcasted and approve by Gallen. How about the give away car at Carlise years back 1969 Coronet R/T Hemi. It was cloned from my friends Drag car using his Vin It was White with a red Stripe.They advertised it as such. thousands showed to win that car. I didn't see anyone complain until after it was given out. But then and only then Whiners that Had tickets that didn't win came forward and said This wasn't right. It was then vin'ed using a coronet 500 vin that didn't say Hemi Well that was OK because he was'nt increasing the count of the rare hemi owners cars. This same car was resold at Barret Jackson, and speaking of which how many cars come across that block that are Clones nationally advertised.
Heres what I think we have here. There are those who have spent alot of money on cars because the Demand is there but the supply is not. They are totally jealous of the person who has the ability to build or rebuild a car they want that just isn't available anymore, and they do it for pennies on the dollar of what others pay. It makes an original worth less because of the supply, and that my freind is what we have here . If a car is rebuilt using another body but has been fitted with all of the options that the original had I see it as alot of others do, its just another neglected and forgotten Muscle car brought back to life. Just to see what was available back then should not be discouraged. Now what I can't stand is Seeing a add that states ( 1971 Demon 340 original color, Auto ,8 3/4 rear. Factory ralleys and stripes).... Now what it should have said was , (1971 Dodge Demon, 340 motor , trans and 8 3/4 rear installed was a /6. has been repainted using a 1971 dodge color 71 340 stripes and rallies added). There are people who do not know about the Data plate they would go to look at the first add and buy it, thinking they got a 340 car, they did, but in reallity they didn't get the package. Now that is totally wrong, I have had people that come here for parts thinking they had a 70 340 car asking me for a optional ralley dash. When I tell them all 70 340s had them and show them their /6 vin they are discusted they had no clue the vin showed what motor it came with. So my opinion and only opinion whether it be right or wrong . Is a clone is only illegal when the criteria on the Data and vin do not match the cars options.
If you had a car being a 340, Hemi, sixpack or whatever., bought it new, some asshole slamed you in the back, shoving the tailghts to the seat. Would you send the title in for salvage and hunt for the rest of your life for another like what you had that isn't out there, or would you fix your baby using another body and rebuild what you had. I worked at a Chrysler shop in the 70's . When they were new and were hit hard we would clip them with a used body as per the insurance.On some we would only have to put on the front clip with the K and motor because the dash was the same color.(yes we knew about the rivets) I still see some of those cars at shows where the front doesn't match the back.
The best thing you can do is worry about you!, don't get involve with what others do unless it dirrectly involves you. Their are alot of crazy people out here in this world that it dosn't take much to push them over the edge. I wouldn't call any one out on this issue or threaten to take action , especially if it means hurting them or their families livelyhood. You never know what action would come back. I once saw someone go into a sittuation like this. They opened their mouth before the thought. They went into a gunfight holding their dick.Wasn't pretty. Only my opinion.
Demon 408
Well-Known Member
Oldmanmopar, I absolutely agree with your points. There are legal means to save cars, personally I think that is great for preservation of significant and important cars for our hobby.
I intentionally did not name names (or screen names), no need to, people incriminate themselves on this forum daily.
My main point was to try and educate, because there appears to be a few younger members on this forum who do not understand the difference between right and wrong. I came from a generation where your word is everything.
Thanks for your insight, seriously.
ElFin
Well-Known Member
Somebody stole my fender tag at Carlisle a few years back. I wonder what they did with it...
dodge71demon
Well-Known Member
I can agree to an extent like the infomercial "BUT WAIT" I understand that way to many cars are misrepresented throughout all brands and models but as long as the car is represented for what it really is I see NO PROBLEM in it but that probably is not the norm to many crooks out there.When you take a bunch of parts from other cars to make one what really is it?Let's say you had a Demon that had a serious frame problem or whatever and everything else was good but you had a good duster body and used it to make a Demon with the majority of the parts off the Demon let's say everything but the main body WHAT DO YOU TITLE IT AS?I would say the Demon.Majority wins.It's done with classic cars all the time and they have no problems with it but they be a more honest bunch
Demon 408
Well-Known Member
I have no problem if it's done correctly and by the laws of your state of titling and registration. And when, or if, you sell that car you provide full and open disclosure for what it is, good on you.
The problem comes in when someone doesn't provide the full and open discloure, that is intentionally mis-representing. Some may say it's the fault of the prospective buyer, and to a certain extent I agree. If you buy a car in this hobby and don't know a conterfiet from a clone or from a original you deserve what you get, that is called "BUYER BEWARE". This is why I provided my definitions of the different categories in my original post, to hopefully educate. Not only the buyer but the seller because maybe it's just ignorance on their part.
This is an unpopular topic, I know. It's human nature to "look the other way" as long as it isn't hurting you.
And for the record, let me reiterate, I will provide a public apology to anyone who feels wronged by my post if they can prove to me that they had no ill intentions to decieve.
Sly Fox Racing
Sly Fox Racing
I know there are guys who do the same thing with Chargers & Challengers. Change the grill & tail-light panel to make the car whatever year they prefer. The 72-74 Challengers is often cloned to a 70 Challenger. The only reason they do it is to make bigger bucks on them when they sell them.
Another good Example , Taking a car you own and rebuilding it to what it was is OK using whatever means . But taking a car you own and just adding the vin is a no! no!. It could never have the complete package if you only ever had the vin and not the car. Or just the opposite if you own a Dart sport and it is titled dart sport it should stay a dart sport not a Demon. There was a guy that built a 72 duster 340. from a 73 318 car. It was a reall nice car and by its looks it was the real deal if you didn't know these cars. He Had it appraised as a 72 340. Then had it insured for its appraisal. Soon after he got into an accident his fault????, No one else involved????, collected the insurance. over 25k!!!!, It wasn't until several months later the insurance saw the discrepency in the year of manufacture on the registration vs. the appraisal . He was arrested for insurance fraud and charged with a felony he was also charged with altering the car without getting a reconstructed title . He got five yrs. Spent three. He lost his house and his family. One of his freinds he tried screwing is now with his wife. What he did was screwed himself. and he's paying for it. He tried to drag the appraisal shop in but he filled out the information including the year himself. and then he went after the body shop but the reciept stated 1973 Duster race car and he supplied the parts for the redo , the body guy covered himself . And then he came after me because I sold him the parts and they were for the wrong year. Luckly I didn't install the tailight section. He drug every one in that was involved even his freinds. he just wanted to get out of what he did. Saying he had no idea they were not the correct parts. I had gotten local car show entries where he entered as rare 1972 Duster 340. That proved he knew what he was saying he had, and his intent. Those of you out there who are making cars look like something they are not , this is illegal, and anyone knowingly involved even if it is mentioned you knew and were part of the proccess you are as guilty. Ask the friend who went down with him . Reconstructed titles must be gotten if you choose to alter a cars appearance and they must meet todays emmission standards for your state. And good luck with that.
dodge71demon
Well-Known Member
As I said to many crooks a neighbor bought a GTO a few years ago and found out later it was a Tempest and was sold to him as a GTO so it's up to the buyer to check it out thoroughly before laying out any $$$$$$ of course there was a lot of stupid buyers out there waiting to be took but maybe not so much since the market has corrected
dartcuda1
67 Barracuda 500ci 6sp
I agree with demon 408. There are some people on hear so far that are mission the point or not reading everything.I will put this out there and maybe some of you will get it.When I bought my cuda Hear is what the guy said.I had a barracuda formula S that I wreaked.I bought a second cuda and put all the formula stuff in.When he gave me both titles and the formula S vin, He said the only thing he didn,t change was the vin.No misrepresent ion here. Also there is no one hear jealous of the person who has the ability to build or rebuild a car they want that just isn't available anymore, and they do it for pennies on the dollar of what others pay.That statement is just bull.But thats how dishonest people make there money.Every one knows that if you rip people off most likely you will have money,no friends but money.And you will die a miserable and broke.Why I say broke is,you can,t take it with you and in hell money burns.Anyway I know the formula S car was smashed in the junkyard.Should I pass my car off as a original formula S numbers car? I did have the title and the VIN plate.What I did was cut the formula S VIN plate up(The car is gone) and kept the title for the person the bought the engine and trans.Some of you must understand that mopars are unibodies (the ones we are talking about) so if you cut the underside of a duster and put it under a demon,you still have a demon. Mark
Demon 408
Well-Known Member
That's a very good example of what can happen Oldmammopar. By the way, when I call you "oldman" it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
greenhornet
Well-Known Member
Back in the 80's one of my buddys pulled a '68 4-speed road runner out of a junkyard, he swithed the VIN's so he could tag/insure it, he got "busted" he did a sloppy job changing the VIN was the only reason the state trooper questioned it.. We just built the car to street race (another no-no), he never tryed to sell it or pass it off numbers matching, we raced that runner every weekend, it was a blast, but we were young, dumb and just having fun..
You know your old when you worked on and drove these cars new. You can call me what ever you want , just not late for diner. You all do have a point some go to far to make money in our hobby. And it is a shame. If the goverment was so worried about vin swap why don't they stop the reppoped complete body's
STR-14
I put the hoar in hoarder
So what about Dynacorn Bodies - you just supply your serial number? AMD can supply every piece to replace on your B-Body - what is that then? Look at some of the stories that have been produced in the Mopar magazines about how so-and-so ended up with only being able to re-use the roof because the rest of the car was so rusty. If you are busy replacing body panels and rusted parts on any car, at what point in time does it become not factory original? Where do fibreglass versus steel bodied cars fit into the equation?
Maybe I live in a sequestered world, but nobody I know buys a Mopar etc. without double checking the VIN and doing the rest of their homework. I can't speak for the X brands because I don't do old X brands.
I agree, if you don't disclose what you've done or intentionally try to play dumb or outright deceive potential buyers, then you are morally bankrupt. However, if the car is worth looking at and is being advertised, chances are pretty good that at least one real Mopar guy is going to show up and bust their chops.
If someone sticks a Demon tail panel on a Duster, etc - so what? They won't be able to change the S/N or the registration.
I think the original intent of VIN laws was to prevent me from sticking the VIN from my smashed car onto your stolen car and claiming it as mine. Since then, the intent of that law has morphed into the status it has now. And if you want to practice insurance fraud - well, you are just stupid and on your own.
I'm not condoning re-bodies, insurance fraud, switching titles etc. etc. This is a good healthy discussion and I'm only adding to the points of view and topics being discussed here.
I guess I believe that it all boils down to intent of the seller and the age old saw of buyer beware.
Daryl
Maybe I live in a sequestered world, but nobody I know buys a Mopar etc. without double checking the VIN and doing the rest of their homework. I can't speak for the X brands because I don't do old X brands.
I agree, if you don't disclose what you've done or intentionally try to play dumb or outright deceive potential buyers, then you are morally bankrupt. However, if the car is worth looking at and is being advertised, chances are pretty good that at least one real Mopar guy is going to show up and bust their chops.
If someone sticks a Demon tail panel on a Duster, etc - so what? They won't be able to change the S/N or the registration.
I think the original intent of VIN laws was to prevent me from sticking the VIN from my smashed car onto your stolen car and claiming it as mine. Since then, the intent of that law has morphed into the status it has now. And if you want to practice insurance fraud - well, you are just stupid and on your own.
I'm not condoning re-bodies, insurance fraud, switching titles etc. etc. This is a good healthy discussion and I'm only adding to the points of view and topics being discussed here.
I guess I believe that it all boils down to intent of the seller and the age old saw of buyer beware.
Daryl
dodge71demon
Well-Known Member
Yes I worked in a speed shop back in the day and I hate to guess how many factory parts went in the dumpster that were replaced with aftermarket stuff
Demon 408
Well-Known Member
Good point. I knew someone would eventually get around to the new bodies (uni-bodies) you can purchase through Dynacorn. These are legal when you follow the laws of your State. People may not like them because they "dilute" the market, but you can legally title and register these cars. But that does not mean you can legally swap VINs from and old Challenger to one of these Dynacorn Challenger bodies. Most States will give you a unique VIN and title that make it obvious it was not producded by Chrysler. And at least Dynacorn provides advice and links to the correct DMV site. For example, look at below links:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/..._reproduction_1970_challenger_body/index.html
http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/classic2.html
http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/stateseal2.html
http://www.dmv.org/va-virginia/custom-built-cars.php
greenhornet
Well-Known Member
If I had a duster, I'd make it into a demon just because I think demon's are wicked looking.. I wouldn't monkey with the VIN's I'd leave it a duster, but I'd have no control over what the next guy might do with it.. So it really comes down to buyer beware, know what you're looking at before you lay down the cash or if you get stuck with a fake it's your own damn fault.. When I buy a car I don't take the sellers word as the gospil, I make all the judgment calls on the car myself, and yes-- I've been burned on a few..
Well I have driven these cars when new,so I guess that puts me in the OLD MAN catagory.I have probably seen just about every situation known to these cars.You are right this is a very sticky conversation.How far down this road do you want to go?I have a car that is a survivor,and when I took it to car shows most guru's-self proclaimed-say that it has been built,and that the wingnut on the breather is not correct.When these cars were built they were not all perfect!I have very few aftermarket parts on my cars.That means a bunch of cars died so that I could build mine.I have one that would have been better to junk,but I wanted it-my choice.You guy's with all the aftermarket parts score better than mine,as my parts are old.So when you guy's start putting new parts on old cars,don't lie and say it's original,because if you do you are just as guilty as the guy that changes it all.
Demon 408
Well-Known Member
See my previous reponse for the low down on Dynacorn. Not sure what Canadian law is concerning these.
I here ya, but certainly it's not "original". It may be correct, but it's not original. If you are retaining the original VIN that went with that "roof" is it legal in your State, or Country? I don't know, perhaps. Bottomline, as you say, it boils down to legality, honesty, and ethics.
Demon 408
Well-Known Member
True. But for every person that got ripped off there was at one point in the life of that car a dishonest seller.
By the the way, I cut some slack to "OP" on the other post...but just a little. So see I do have a heart...it's just dark and cold. :angel9:
macho781988
your resident horses a$$
i have a rather interesting tale that i was told by a universal technical institue teacher, he taught the transmission class. he was going thru a divorce and he had a big house, a boat lots of money, and two Road runners, one a 73 and one 74, one was a mint 440 car ( he never said if he put the motor in himself or not so dont hold me to say its all factory original) the 74 was a full blown drag car, and he had two parts cars. now take a wild guess as to wat the ***** wanted? yup thats right she didnt want the house or the boat or the money, nope she wanted those two cars. and judge appointed them to her! so my teacher sat around drinking for 3 days and got an idea, they only checked the dash vins, not the doors or under the hood. so he ripped the dash out of both good cars and swapped them with the parts cars, and gave them to the pick up guy, she had a cop waiting at her house to make sure the vins were correct, on the dash only again he didnt check the doors or under the hood, she btched and bitched and said these are the wrong ones, the cop said the vins match, congratulations you got your settlement, you are now the proud owner of two pieces of ****. and he left. so vin swapping saved his cars well that and he had to have about 2 grand worth of dash work done to each. so i guess its illegal, but if it actually happened, he did save his cars.
I would beleive it to be seller beware. Because if the buyer Decides to recant. the seller is the one thats going to take the loss and the heat. After the buyer strips his clone and then turns in the seller. The buyer gets his money back and the seller gets junk and the fines. It can go either way. Seen this happen to sellers at Carlisle. Buyer took it home, stole the drive train and demanded his money back because of a undisclosed vin change on a rr clone . Sell a 440 sixpack get a 318 back.
AdamR
Big Member
State issued vin # registered as a kit car.
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