Crazy alignment problems

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67Dart273 said:
It's amazing to me that it took "that little" toe to cause that big a problem. I'd guess that the more grip you have / wider tires the worse it becomes.
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I think that you are on to something with that assessment. My son has a 00 Dakota R/T, which has insanely big tires, especially on the front, and he had a helluva hard time getting it aligned after we replaced the ball joints, and bushings. The alignment shop (Les Schwab) could not seem to get the upper control arm bolts tight enough. Twice the UCA's came loose on the way home from the alignment.
 
Was not an issue for me. 275 rear and skinny fronts. Rear track is wider. I set strings up on 4 jack stands in the garage and measured from the strings to levels placed up against the inside of the fronts. Would never have thought a 1/2” toe could effect the front change that much, but with skinnies up front they likely slide easier and surely on a slick floor. Good info learned in this post for sure.
 
I had a few minutes to piddle with the alignment earlier and found something that has to be part of the issue.
The new idler are has a lot of play in it inside of the QA1 kmember. I guess there’s supposed to be a spacer or washers in there with it?
Whenever the steering moves it makes the idler arm move up or down which in turn makes the wheels turn slightly.
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What should I do? Add spacers to remove the play?
 
Yep that has to be tight no play up and down, look around for the washers it should come with new ones if you got the idler are new.
 
Make sure your spacer/washers If needed is sized to the bolt. There is a sleeve inside the idle arm that needs to have the crush to it, if that makes sense.

Also Grease all the components. A good shop will see this and shoot some in but you never know. Don’t trust them to do what you should have done already!
 
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1969383S said:
Make sure your spacer/washers If needed is sized to the bolt. There is a sleeve inside the idle arm that needs to have the crush to it, if that makes sense.

Also Grease all the components. A good shop will see this and shoot some in but you never know. Don’t trust them to do what you should have done already!
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I understand that the washers/spacers need to fit snugly on the bolt but could you clarify the “needs to have crush to it” part? Thanks
 
Craig Burriss said:
I understand that the washers/spacers need to fit snugly on the bolt but could you clarify the “needs to have crush to it” part? Thanks
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Clamp on the k- frame sections to idler should be to the sleeve in the arm.
 
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I finally got around to tightening the idler arm correctly. It made no difference in my issues.
When the car goes backwards, the front end comes up and toes in.
When it goes forwards, the front end goes way down, toes out and hits the fenders.
I’ve tightened the torsion bars tighter than I feel like they should be, the adjuster bolts are even with each other.
I’ve replaced the UCA cam bolts with new QA1s, set them in every way imaginable and tightened the ever living piss out of them everytime. They aren’t moving around so it can’t be them.
Everything else in the front end is tightened down with no play anywhere.

I know I should’ve taken it to an alignment shop a long time ago but to be honest, I hate people working on my car. Probably because every time I’ve had someone work on something they always f*** it up somehow. My car has a brand new unbroken-in transmission and third member and I just don’t trust leaving the car in the hands of a stranger.

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for it to be doing what you're describing it has to be broken or incredibly loosely bolted. It almost sounds like you don't have the strut rods istalled. See if you can get somebody to bump the car thru the gears, while you watch to see where it is moving, while not allowing yourself to get run over.
 
Your lower control arm bushings are whipped out, or your toe is way off
go back and read post #35
 
Would be nice to see a lower angle pic of the front tires. Did you readjust the tie rods for equal distance with the steering wheel centered lock to lock? Previous post has merit but seem to remember you put all new bushings in. This should not be that difficult. Re read your entire post and digest. Have you got a buddy to help see what is moving? I am headed to Fl in the morning but statesboro is a tad out of the way.
 
I don't think he replaced the lower bushings, all he talks about is the uppers.
 
Dumb question..... are the bolts through the new k member to the frame all good and tight, and no slop? As said 3 posts above, for it to do what you describe, means that the LCA is moving around relative to the chassis a LOT; that could occur at 3-4 places: k-member moving, LCA pivot moving, LCA inner bushings moving (torn apart), or strut rod loose.

If you have poly bushing in the LCA, then that one is least likely. If the LCA bushings are rubber, they could be shot if old, or, if new but you tightened the pivots while up in the air and front wheels at full droop, then they are probably torn all up.
 
Lots of replies so I’ll try to cover them all here.

RustyCowll69
Unless my strut rod has somehow sheared off inside of my LCA, and not fallen out or gotten loose, I don’t think anything is broken.

Brian6pac
The LCA bushings are new polyurethane. I’ve adjusted toe many times trying to get it right.

1969383S
I’ll try and get some better pictures next time I’m working on it. I’ve been playing around with the toe trying to figure it out but it always changes as soon as the car moves. I appreciate the offer for help but I barely have time to work on it by myself. I basically just work on it 15 minutes at a time.

nm9stheham
Everything is tight. I have triple checked everything. No play anywhere. All new poly bushings.


I don’t know if they would have anything to do with it but ever since I went to the PerformanceOnline front disc kit I’ve had this problem. It seems like the passenger side is the problem. The driver side seems ok.

Thanks again for all of the input
 
Craig Burriss said:
Lots of replies so I’ll try to cover them all here.

RustyCowll69
Unless my strut rod has somehow sheared off inside of my LCA, and not fallen out or gotten loose, I don’t think anything is broken.

Brian6pac
The LCA bushings are new polyurethane. I’ve adjusted toe many times trying to get it right.

1969383S
I’ll try and get some better pictures next time I’m working on it. I’ve been playing around with the toe trying to figure it out but it always changes as soon as the car moves. I appreciate the offer for help but I barely have time to work on it by myself. I basically just work on it 15 minutes at a time.

nm9stheham
Everything is tight. I have triple checked everything. No play anywhere. All new poly bushings.


I don’t know if they would have anything to do with it but ever since I went to the PerformanceOnline front disc kit I’ve had this problem. It seems like the passenger side is the problem. The driver side seems ok.

Thanks again for all of the input
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How are you setting the toe ? Exactly,
 
nm9stheham said:
Dumb question..... are the bolts through the new k member to the frame all good and tight, and no slop? As said 3 posts above, for it to do what you describe, means that the LCA is moving around relative to the chassis a LOT; that could occur at 3-4 places: k-member moving, LCA pivot moving, LCA inner bushings moving (torn apart), or strut rod loose.

If you have poly bushing in the LCA, then that one is least likely. If the LCA bushings are rubber, they could be shot if old, or, if new but you tightened the pivots while up in the air and front wheels at full droop, then they are probably torn all up.
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Not a dumb question for sure!

When the lower bushings were replaced were the shells of the old rubber left in place? Think they must be for the poly. Not sure as every one I do goes back as original rubber.
 
you need four steel square plates of about 15 inch square. pair them up with grease between the plates and carefully move the front wheels onto them. they will then slide and remove any loading from the misalignment. then you can start your measurements.




a simple-ish tracking method is the square around the wheels.

easiest way is to have two bars about 300mm wider than the cars track and cut notches in the ends at exactly the same points on each bar.

put the bars on axle stands, one at the front of the car and one at the rear. set them to the height of the wheel centres.

run fishing line/wire front to rear in the notches, one each side of the car, with weights at one end to keep the wire in tension. this is your square (rectangle but I'll say square as easier).


with a tape measure/ruler measure the distance from the wire to the wheel centres and make sure they are the same each side. Tap the calibrated bars left or right to centre. (front and rear measurements will be different due to track differences. just make sure rear measurements match and front measurements match.)


you now have the square centred to the car. with the tape measure/ruler now measure each wheel at the wire to rim so you end up with eight measurements. (two for each wheel, write on a pad for reference)

lets just concentrate on the front. if the four measurements are the same then the wheels are dead ahead and you have zero tracking.

if for example the measurements you read are 2mm longer at the front part of the rim to the rear part of the rim measured from the wire, then you will have 4mm toe in

if you have one that has a longer measurement at the front of the rim, and the other with a longer measurement at the back of the other side rim then the steering is not centred (although with a bit of mathematics you should still be able to work out the tracking)


the last paragraph is good for centring your steering wheel, with the steering wheel in a dead ahead position the measurements at the front wheels should be even. i.e. both with zero difference or say 1mm longer each side to give 2mm total toe in.


remember the measurements are from the wire so may seem reversed but draw yourself an exaggerated diagram and it should make sense.

Speed academy DIY wheel alignment
 
1969383S said:
Not a dumb question for sure!

When the lower bushings were replaced were the shells of the old rubber left in place? Think they must be for the poly. Not sure as every one I do goes back as original rubber.
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Not familiar with that but I do remember this.........junked out a rusted moredoor 318 car, had ONE LCA pivot hole wallered out. You could NOT back that car up without getting the tires in a wad. It was amazing. You are only talking about maybe, 1/4" of 'slop' so to say
 
Craig Burriss said:
I don’t know if they would have anything to do with it but ever since I went to the PerformanceOnline front disc kit I’ve had this problem. It seems like the passenger side is the problem. The driver side seems ok.
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That was gonna be one of my next questions..... if the UCA's and spindles are not properly matched, then you'll never be able to get it right. Saw that on a car for sale.... wrong year UCA's vs spindles and the front end was all out of whack. I'll admit I have forgotten a lot of what goes with what, so maybe someone can take that matter up.

But first, let's go back to this statement: "When it goes forwards, the front end goes way down, toes out and hits the fenders."

Is the front end going down because you are moving forward onto a more sloped section of driveway, or are applying the brakes hard and it takes a set down? I am trying to figure out why this happens.... I can think of a couple of things:
  • Something loose as noted but you say all is tight
  • Torsion bars taking only part of the weight and the rest begin taken by torque on the bushings.... but you say you have poly bushings in the LCA's? Please confirm
  • I don't understand what you mean when you say you have the torsion bars adjusted as tight as you dare.. can you expand on that?
Now for the 2nd part of your statement.... For the front end to toe out when the front end goes down, then the tie rod and LCA are at different angles and/or tie rods are improper lengths. The toe rod angle being shallow compared to the LCA or the tie rod end being too long would do as you describe. Things to think about that can cause that:
  • Wrong idler arm, setting the inner tie rod end too low
  • Wrong mounting point for the idler arm on the K member. Did you put shims above or below the mounting point of the idler arm?
  • Wrong year draglink, putting the inner tie rod end inward too far. You show one pix with the passenger side tie rod end adjusted waaaay out so that might indicate this problem
  • Something amiss with the lower ball joint assembly (least likely IMHO)
My best bet at this point is that you have something wrong with the draglink or idler. Looking at your 4th pix in post #17, the wheels appear to be turned full left, and yet the idler arm is pointing almost straight back... that is messed up. IIRC, the idler should be straight back when the wheels are straight ahead and angled over to the passenger side when the wheels are turned left. The passenger side tie rod being suuuuper extended matches with this apparent problem.

Looking at the ninth picture in that group of the driver's side, the wheels are turned hard right and the pitman arm location looks right; it is angled to the driver's side, and the tie rod end is a normal length.

IMHO, you may have the wrong draglink in there for the other parts that you have.
 
as noted above there does look to be misalignment in the idler arm/ drag link

but I also noted that you have one track rod set way longer than the other (Steering rod/arm? i'm in the UK)

I would say you will have major bump steer issues as well. and as the idler can be spaced up or down this will also cause bump steer issues. only a fraction of an inch can have huge affect on bump steer.

I think an alignment shop is the only way as caster, camber, tracking and bump steer will need to be addressed. obviously any underlying issues will need to be sorted during or before hand.

if your worried about a road test just set the throttle linkage so there is only partial throttle available.
 
FWIW, the OP appears to have the early (1970) pitman arm and idler, and matching draglink. The studs point up. The later '73 type pitman arm and idler and their draglink have the studs pointing down. Not sure what the QA1 is setup for.

I know the ball joints/arms are different between early and late. Does anyone know if the offset/angle of the steering arm on the early lower BJ arms angles inward more than the later ones. That could be another source of problems; add that to the list of possible component problems.

OP, did you buy all 1970 idler, pitman, tie rod sleeves, and lower BJ assemblies? Or the lower BJ's from POL? (Which I think are the later ones.)
 
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I think he just can't set the toe correctly because he's doing it on the pavement, no turn tables or no way for the tires to move while turning the sleeves. 2 steel (sheet metal) plates with grease in between them works great, I think it would solve his problem.
 
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