Missed on this combo?

[Ironmike]

Yup.

Or spend some time on the SV.

I'd rather see a Strip Dominator but it would need some welding to work on 400 plus cubic inches.

What can I do to the Super Victor? Already have a real good port match and on into the runners a good 2 1/2 inches.

I don't like that when you look down through the carb, you can see those 2 big blobs of aluminum in the front corners. Looks restrictive to me but what do I know. I can get a pic if you don't know what I mean.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

What can I do to the Super Victor? Already have a real good port match and on into the runners a good 2 1/2 inches.

I don't like that when you look down through the carb, you can see those 2 big blobs of aluminum in the front corners. Looks restrictive to me but what do I know. I can get a pic if you don't know what I mean.

Blend them more, just don't lay them back much. Get a rough stone and run it around in the plenum and port entrances, roof.

 

[abodyjim]

I'm building something similar so I'm interested in how this turns out.
Question about his cam choice, was it a good or bad choice for his combination? I picked something similar for mine.
If he would benefit from a cam swap what cam would be recommended?

 

[yellow rose]

I'm building something similar so I'm interested in how this turns out.
Question about his cam choice, was it a good or bad choice for his combination? I picked something similar for mine.
If he would benefit from a cam swap what cam would be recommended?

That is the $64,000.00 question and has yet to be definitively answer.

 

[Ironmike]

First have to find out if the cam is really ground correctly. That is the 32,000 thousand dollar question. Heads are the other 32,000 dollar half.

Leaving here early tomorrow for the flow bench! Will at least know if the heads are crap, ok, great, or "need fixed". Tom Hemphill Racing. Got a call from Pittsburghracer from Moparts who said he's pretty good and will give me the straight poop. So off I go.....

Soon as I get home I'm measuring lobe lift right off the lifter. No geometry blapadee blap.....what I measure is what is is. Didn't have time tonight. Just got the head off at 10 o'clock.

I'll bet 10 bucks it's exactly what I got off the pushrod days ago. .4008. Just have a feeling it ain't right.

At this point, I kinda hope it's all messed up, and the heads are OK. That's my best case scenario.

Man, YR, that ultradyne of yours would be a bargain if it was a wee bit shorter on duration. I'm STILL wondering where V to P would be...

 

[Ironmike]

I'm building something similar so I'm interested in how this turns out.
Question about his cam choice, was it a good or bad choice for his combination? I picked something similar for mine.
If he would benefit from a cam swap what cam would be recommended?

It wasn't a choice. It was Bullets suggestion after giving them every detail about my build. And it SUCKED. LIke some guys have said...

You'd think you can believe these highly trained, experienced experts in their field. I did better myself on my last build. Friggin off the shelf Lunati.

 

[abodyjim]

What was the numbers on the lunati?

 

[yellow rose]

First have to find out if the cam is really ground correctly. That is the 32,000 thousand dollar question. Heads are the other 32,000 dollar half.

Leaving here early tomorrow for the flow bench! Will at least know if the heads are crap, ok, great, or "need fixed". Tom Hemphill Racing. Got a call from Pittsburghracer from Moparts who said he's pretty good and will give me the straight poop. So off I go.....

Soon as I get home I'm measuring lobe lift right off the lifter. No geometry blapadee blap.....what I measure is what is is. Didn't have time tonight. Just got the head off at 10 o'clock.

I'll bet 10 bucks it's exactly what I got off the pushrod days ago. .4008. Just have a feeling it ain't right.

At this point, I kinda hope it's all messed up, and the heads are OK. That's my best case scenario.

Man, YR, that ultradyne of yours would be a bargain if it was a wee bit shorter on duration. I'm STILL wondering where V to P would be...

Hell, if you are up for it, I'll send you the cam and you can degree it in and check your P/V. If it will fit and you want to spend the time and work on the dyno you can test it and see what it does. Some of it depends on how much more dyno time you want to spend $$$$ on and if you want to change cams on the dyno. I've done it with chains, gear drives and belts. It's easiest to change the ICl with a belt, but changing cams is about the same work with any drive system.

 

[j par]

All joking a side,
I can't thank you enough for posting all this because I know if I'm able to ever afford those heads it will be a once-in-a-lifetime chance. I wouldn't be able to afford making the wrong choice. thank you in advance for posting the upcoming results of the flow of the heads.

First have to find out if the cam is really ground correctly. That is the 32,000 thousand dollar question. Heads are the other 32,000 dollar half.

Leaving here early tomorrow for the flow bench! Will at least know if the heads are crap, ok, great, or "need fixed". Tom Hemphill Racing. Got a call from Pittsburghracer from Moparts who said he's pretty good and will give me the straight poop. So off I go.....

Soon as I get home I'm measuring lobe lift right off the lifter. No geometry blapadee blap.....what I measure is what is is. Didn't have time tonight. Just got the head off at 10 o'clock.

I'll bet 10 bucks it's exactly what I got off the pushrod days ago. .4008. Just have a feeling it ain't right.

At this point, I kinda hope it's all messed up, and the heads are OK. That's my best case scenario.

Man, YR, that ultradyne of yours would be a bargain if it was a wee bit shorter on duration. I'm STILL wondering where V to P would be...

 

[Lustle]

I am curious to see what those heads end up flowing. And what the cam ends up being.

Did you ever get the chance to do a compression test? IF you did I must have missed it. But with your setup if it's not cranking 190-195 minimum. Then you have DCR problems. In an aluminum head setup 190-195 = 9.5 Dynamic compression ratio. Which is the "theoretical" safe max limit for pump 91. I'm correcting for your altitude (I believe you said 1000 feet?) And yes, there's guys running 220 psi on aluminum heads on pump gas. I'm just giving you the idea for whats the "safe" limit. But something tells me, you're going to end up down in the 175-180 PSI area. More around 8.5 dynamic compression. Which can end up giving you a "soft" bottom end. Of course "soft" is relative. 8.5 DCR is stout. Just not near the max what an aluminum head engine can do.

As a side note. I was reading the thread where MRL just did a somewhat similar build. 416. Flat top. 10.8:1. FItech EFI. Hughes big mouth heads. RPM dual plane. Solid roller with 281/285 duration at seat. .620 lift. It made 582 TQ at 4350. 584 HP at 5800 rpm. Torque was 525 at 3100. And 550 at 5500 rpm. And that was with fuel pump problems at the top end. He thinks it should be closer to 600 horse with the pump working properly. So smaller cam. "Bigger" heads. Dual plane intake. But still a little more than what your's did. And to be honest even with the "better" flow numbers of the big mouth heads, I can't think that has a HUGE impact at your power levels. Even according to hughes own flow charts. Anything over .400 lift the big mouth only flow around 10 CFM more. WAY inside the 10% someone mentioned hughes said was their "error margin" for flow numbers. Even at lower levels the flow increase never exceeds 20cfm. That's on their own flow charts. 10% at 250 cfm is 25cfm. Meaning the CNC and big mouth heads COULD technically flow the same. Since hughes apparently doesn't flow heads after they port them. Just looking at your build. To me. There's no reason that thing shouldn't touch 600 horse.

I'm gunna wait and see what the cam/heads comes out too. It could just be a combination of small things. Head's not flowing quite what they say. Cam specs being a hair off. Intake could be better. Etc etc. If it was only one of these things, you might not even notice. But it's the old "death of a thousand paper cuts" where all the small little things end up causing one big problem. The devil really is in the details with engine building. I mean even something as simple as a better bore/hone with proper rings can pickup 20 horse.

So let us know what you end up finding.

 

[yellow rose]

I am curious to see what those heads end up flowing. And what the cam ends up being.

Did you ever get the chance to do a compression test? IF you did I must have missed it. But with your setup if it's not cranking 190-195 minimum. Then you have DCR problems. In an aluminum head setup 190-195 = 9.5 Dynamic compression ratio. Which is the "theoretical" safe max limit for pump 91. I'm correcting for your altitude (I believe you said 1000 feet?) And yes, there's guys running 220 psi on aluminum heads on pump gas. I'm just giving you the idea for whats the "safe" limit. But something tells me, you're going to end up down in the 175-180 PSI area. More around 8.5 dynamic compression. Which can end up giving you a "soft" bottom end. Of course "soft" is relative. 8.5 DCR is stout. Just not near the max what an aluminum head engine can do.

As a side note. I was reading the thread where MRL just did a somewhat similar build. 416. Flat top. 10.8:1. FItech EFI. Hughes big mouth heads. RPM dual plane. Solid roller with 281/285 duration at seat. .620 lift. It made 582 TQ at 4350. 584 HP at 5800 rpm. Torque was 525 at 3100. And 550 at 5500 rpm. And that was with fuel pump problems at the top end. He thinks it should be closer to 600 horse with the pump working properly. So smaller cam. "Bigger" heads. Dual plane intake. But still a little more than what your's did. And to be honest even with the "better" flow numbers of the big mouth heads, I can't think that has a HUGE impact at your power levels. Even according to hughes own flow charts. Anything over .400 lift the big mouth only flow around 10 CFM more. WAY inside the 10% someone mentioned hughes said was their "error margin" for flow numbers. Even at lower levels the flow increase never exceeds 20cfm. That's on their own flow charts. 10% at 250 cfm is 25cfm. Meaning the CNC and big mouth heads COULD technically flow the same. Since hughes apparently doesn't flow heads after they port them. Just looking at your build. To me. There's no reason that thing shouldn't touch 600 horse.

I'm gunna wait and see what the cam/heads comes out too. It could just be a combination of small things. Head's not flowing quite what they say. Cam specs being a hair off. Intake could be better. Etc etc. If it was only one of these things, you might not even notice. But it's the old "death of a thousand paper cuts" where all the small little things end up causing one big problem. The devil really is in the details with engine building. I mean even something as simple as a better bore/hone with proper rings can pickup 20 horse.

So let us know what you end up finding.

I agree with this but don't get nearly as excited about CFM differences. I'll take less flow with a better port and the correct cross section any day than a bigger flow number.

That's why I was hoping I could flow the head. I would have done more than just put it on the bench and ran numbers at 28"'s.

My bet would be they flow backwards 90-92% (maybe a bit more even) of what they do going forward. That's a big recipie for low speed torque loss.

 

[Lustle]

I agree with this but don't get nearly as excited about CFM differences. I'll take less flow with a better port and the correct cross section any day than a bigger flow number.

That's why I was hoping I could flow the head. I would have done more than just put it on the bench and ran numbers at 28"'s.

My bet would be they flow backwards 90-92% (maybe a bit more even) of what they do going forward. That's a big recipie for low speed torque loss.

I guess my point was more "don't get caught up in CFM's". I'm really not impressed by a 10 cfm gain in moving the pushrods. Especially since that's within their "10%" flow limits. Which to me is just crazy. 10% is huge flow difference between heads.

And of course I'd take a better port and cross section any day. You can port a head to flow almost anything you want and absolutely destroy it in the process. It's easy to makeup numbers on the bench. I'd rather see a good port with less "flow" than a destroyed port with great "flow".

 

[Cudafever]

I can't wait to hear back from you, relating his word.
I'm hoping that it's in the valve job and he can fix you right up.
I hope you took your intake manifold as well. Remember, the port start in the intake, not the head.

 

[Ironmike]

Well drove a couple hours today to Tom Hemphill Racing to get the heads checked out.
He was pretty anxious to check em out. Mostly works big block or W9 and W2 stuff. Boy were we both surprised. I took a pic of the numbers rather than all that typing.

What I liked was he said cfm doesn't always tell the tale but he said they SOUNDED great. Lot of noise to me but he said you flow enough heads and you can hear how they'll run. He flowed them like everyone, I guess.....28 inches...
He did say Hughes must use a pipe on the exhaust side. That would account for the bigger numbers there. For some reason he doesn't use one.

He measured all the ports with some inside caliper thing and said they are all very uniform. I guess if they're set up right, they all should be damn near identical.

Overall he gave them a thumbs up. He seemed pretty happy with em. Velocity a bit high but not too bad.

Checked out my cam card and dyno sheets ....like all of us he says something ain't right. Heads should support a good bit more power.

So they're not quite what they advertised, but awful close. Maybe I got lucky.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

I'd like to see 275+ intake cfm by .500

If thats with no pipe....the header primary can be small...and that cam, dang.lol

 

[yellow rose]

Well drove a couple hours today to Tom Hemphill Racing to get the heads checked out.
He was pretty anxious to check em out. Mostly works big block or W9 and W2 stuff. Boy were we both surprised. I took a pic of the numbers rather than all that typing.

What I liked was he said cfm doesn't always tell the tale but he said they SOUNDED great. Lot of noise to me but he said you flow enough heads and you can hear how they'll run. He flowed them like everyone, I guess.....28 inches...
He did say Hughes must use a pipe on the exhaust side. That would account for the bigger numbers there. For some reason he doesn't use one.
View attachment 1715028757
He measured all the ports with some inside caliper thing and said they are all very uniform. I guess if they're set up right, they all should be damn near identical.

Overall he gave them a thumbs up. He seemed pretty happy with em. Velocity a bit high but not too bad.

Checked out my cam card and dyno sheets ....like all of us he says something ain't right. Heads should support a good bit more power.

So they're not quite what they advertised, but awful close. Maybe I got lucky.

Those heads should go over 600 HP and make more torque at 4000 than it is.

LSA is too wide. Intake duration is a bit too low.

 

[RAMM]

Well drove a couple hours today to Tom Hemphill Racing to get the heads checked out.
He was pretty anxious to check em out. Mostly works big block or W9 and W2 stuff. Boy were we both surprised. I took a pic of the numbers rather than all that typing.

What I liked was he said cfm doesn't always tell the tale but he said they SOUNDED great. Lot of noise to me but he said you flow enough heads and you can hear how they'll run. He flowed them like everyone, I guess.....28 inches...
He did say Hughes must use a pipe on the exhaust side. That would account for the bigger numbers there. For some reason he doesn't use one.
View attachment 1715028757
He measured all the ports with some inside caliper thing and said they are all very uniform. I guess if they're set up right, they all should be damn near identical.

Overall he gave them a thumbs up. He seemed pretty happy with em. Velocity a bit high but not too bad.

Checked out my cam card and dyno sheets ....like all of us he says something ain't right. Heads should support a good bit more power.

So they're not quite what they advertised, but awful close. Maybe I got lucky.

My BM's sound great too because they aren't moving the air they are supposed to either. 230 @ .400" is terrible (there's that molested S.S. again.) 260 @ .500" is not good at all for a head of this pedigree (this is when the **** port design begins to show it's true nature)Well executed W2's are around 280-285 @ .500" and they make great power with teeny cams. The "impressive" high lift flow numbers are because the S.S. is layed down (murdered/removed/obliterated) so bloody far.
The exhaust is excellent which is why you are at the mercy of MEGA reversion. All that exhaust is going right back into the intake because "forward" movement of the intake charge is LAZY on account of the f'd intake tract.

I don't know Tom but I bet he's a nice guy and doesn't have skin in the game on this one and that's why he gave you a thumbs up.

The ports better be identical 'cuz they're CNC'd!! This is one of the biggest advantages of CNC anything-CONSISTENCY.

I think you are battling two things here and a nice term would be "tolerance stack" I don't like your cam all that much. I also think your heads would do what you want if you added 2 points static compression, .750-.770" lift single pattern cam, with a header that has no larger than a 3" collector.

I'll say it again--600 REAL HP , out of a (***) ci Small Mopar , Non W head and pumpgas is VERY VERY difficult. Not sh..ng on you just trying to eliminate tail chasing . By the way--thanks for getting the heads tested, It shows me you are serious. J.Rob

 

[RAMM]

Oh and velocity ain't too high with those numbers and CSA. My good stuff is 400 fps+ IF and only if it isn't turbulent. 321 is slow in my world. J.Rob

 

[Lustle]

I'd like to see 275+ intake cfm by .500

Same. Those numbers are WAY off what hughes says (You did mention full cnc right? That's the numbers I am using). Here:

Hughes
.100 72
.200 149
.300 221
.350 245
.400 266
.450 285
.500 296
.550 301
.600 303
.650 304
.700 305

You
.200 136
.300 185
.400 230
.500 259
.600 283
.700 294
.750 300

I mean you're 30+ cfm off through the mid-range. That's just crap. 30+ cfm is a lot of horsepower. Sure, the AVERAGE motor won't notice it. But a motor with the right intake, cam, exhaust, etc, sure will. The BIGGEST thing I'm noticing here? The lack of CFM gain. It's great to say "oh my heads flow 300 cfm". But the MORE important part, is how soon they get there. That's the sure tell sign of a good port. Sure, your heads flow 305 cfm, at .700 lift. But what about lower? Where you actually use it. For example. Lets say you have two heads. Head A flows 300 cfm at .700. Head B flows 275 cfm at .700. BUT head B, hits that number at .500 lift. Where head A only makes 225 cfm at .500. Which head you going to take? I'll take head B everyday. How quick the CFM gain is, tells you how well the head flows. And your's don't flow any better than a ported J head. Here's info from shady dell.

Ported J head 2.02 valve
.100 62.1
.200 135.2
.300 198.7
.400 239.8
.450 253.9
.500 258.4
.550 264.9
.600 254.6

Almost EXACTLY the same numbers as your head. CFM gain is almost the same too. So basically up to .600 lift, a good ported set of J heads makes the same power. Not really impressed with hughes CNC job at this point. And yes. The edelbrocks are a "stock replacement" style head. So they will always have that limitation. But 30+ cfm missing in the mid-range? Yeah that's crap. The CFM gain being very similar to a port J head tells me there really isn't any good work done on the port.

Now I'm also not saying that the heads are THE reason you're down on power. The head's flow good (just not great, and no where near where hughes said they would). They should support lots of power (just maybe not 600 horse). But to me they are a part of the problem. 185 CFM at .300 lift? 259 cfm at .500? Ported J head territory. Nothing to write home about there. The lack of CFM gain on the lower levels of lift is a part of why this motor is soggy on the bottom end. That along with I imagine is your low compression. Did you ever get cranking compression numbers? If no, CC the chambers and post your cam intake valve closing (prefer at seat) and we can figure out your DCR. Like I said before. I imagine it's a little low.

Also dammit RAMM you beat me to it lol.

 

[64physhy]

I'm interested to see what you figure out. Your torque seems way low, especially in the low-mid range. I think you should try a better carb, good 1" spacer, and some 3" collectors with 18" extensions on them before messing with the cam. Not that the cam is not part of the problem, but I think doing those other "fixes" would get you close to your goal and improve the torque.
FWIW, I also have Hughes ported Iron Ram heads on my stroker, but with 2.055 inake valves, and the numbers were right on what Hughes advertised when Brian at IMM checked them.

 

[Killer6]

My BM's sound great too because they aren't moving the air they are supposed to either. 230 @ .400" is terrible (there's that molested S.S. again.) 260 @ .500" is not good at all for a head of this pedigree (this is when the **** port design begins to show it's true nature)Well executed W2's are around 280-285 @ .500" and they make great power with teeny cams. The "impressive" high lift flow numbers are because the S.S. is layed down (murdered/removed/obliterated) so bloody far.
The exhaust is excellent which is why you are at the mercy of MEGA reversion. All that exhaust is going right back into the intake because "forward" movement of the intake charge is LAZY on account of the f'd intake tract.

I don't know Tom but I bet he's a nice guy and doesn't have skin in the game on this one and that's why he gave you a thumbs up.

The ports better be identical 'cuz they're CNC'd!! This is one of the biggest advantages of CNC anything-CONSISTENCY.

I think you are battling two things here and a nice term would be "tolerance stack" I don't like your cam all that much. I also think your heads would do what you want if you added 2 points static compression, .750-.770" lift single pattern cam, with a header that has no larger than a 3" collector.

I'll say it again--600 REAL HP , out of a (***) ci Small Mopar , Non W head and pumpgas is VERY VERY difficult. Not sh..ng on you just trying to eliminate tail chasing . By the way--thanks for getting the heads tested, It shows me you are serious. J.Rob

Tom has been in the game a long time in the area, doing a LOT of B1 head work & engines, I'm sure He knows those heads may not be giving every last bit for sure. He probably
has a gut instinct they aren't the primary culprit, & He may be correct, those heads should still be kicking more HP than that...............................

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Well drove a couple hours today to Tom Hemphill Racing to get the heads checked out.
He was pretty anxious to check em out. Mostly works big block or W9 and W2 stuff. Boy were we both surprised. I took a pic of the numbers rather than all that typing.

What I liked was he said cfm doesn't always tell the tale but he said they SOUNDED great. Lot of noise to me but he said you flow enough heads and you can hear how they'll run. He flowed them like everyone, I guess.....28 inches...
He did say Hughes must use a pipe on the exhaust side. That would account for the bigger numbers there. For some reason he doesn't use one.
View attachment 1715028757
He measured all the ports with some inside caliper thing and said they are all very uniform. I guess if they're set up right, they all should be damn near identical.

Overall he gave them a thumbs up. He seemed pretty happy with em. Velocity a bit high but not too bad.

Checked out my cam card and dyno sheets ....like all of us he says something ain't right. Heads should support a good bit more power.

So they're not quite what they advertised, but awful close. Maybe I got lucky.

Duration helps, how much can you live with.
That port just doesn't wow me, but you aren't even into the lift and you still got the hp number you did....
intake change could bring up the torque, put the headers you're using in the car on it as well.
The way it is now...its traction aid by means of tq curve.

 

[Killer6]

Same. Those numbers are WAY off what hughes says (You did mention full cnc right? That's the numbers I am using). Here:

Hughes
.100 72
.200 149
.300 221
.350 245
.400 266
.450 285
.500 296
.550 301
.600 303
.650 304
.700 305

You
.200 136
.300 185
.400 230
.500 259
.600 283
.700 294
.750 300

I mean you're 30+ cfm off through the mid-range. That's just crap. 30+ cfm is a lot of horsepower. Sure, the AVERAGE motor won't notice it. But a motor with the right intake, cam, exhaust, etc, sure will. The BIGGEST thing I'm noticing here? The lack of CFM gain. It's great to say "oh my heads flow 300 cfm". But the MORE important part, is how soon they get there. That's the sure tell sign of a good port. Sure, your heads flow 305 cfm, at .700 lift. But what about lower? Where you actually use it. For example. Lets say you have two heads. Head A flows 300 cfm at .700. Head B flows 275 cfm at .700. BUT head B, hits that number at .500 lift. Where head A only makes 225 cfm at .500. Which head you going to take? I'll take head B everyday. How quick the CFM gain is, tells you how well the head flows. And your's don't flow any better than a ported J head. Here's info from shady dell.

Ported J head 2.02 valve
.100 62.1
.200 135.2
.300 198.7
.400 239.8
.450 253.9
.500 258.4
.550 264.9
.600 254.6

Almost EXACTLY the same numbers as your head. CFM gain is almost the same too. So basically up to .600 lift, a good ported set of J heads makes the same power. Not really impressed with hughes CNC job at this point. And yes. The edelbrocks are a "stock replacement" style head. So they will always have that limitation. But 30+ cfm missing in the mid-range? Yeah that's crap. The CFM gain being very similar to a port J head tells me there really isn't any good work done on the port.

Now I'm also not saying that the heads are THE reason you're down on power. The head's flow good (just not great, and no where near where hughes said they would). They should support lots of power (just maybe not 600 horse). But to me they are a part of the problem. 185 CFM at .300 lift? 259 cfm at .500? Ported J head territory. Nothing to write home about there. The lack of CFM gain on the lower levels of lift is a part of why this motor is soggy on the bottom end. That along with I imagine is your low compression. Did you ever get cranking compression numbers? If no, CC the chambers and post your cam intake valve closing (prefer at seat) and we can figure out your DCR. Like I said before. I imagine it's a little low.

Also dammit RAMM you beat me to it lol.

Is there a way We can sort of survey as many of these as possible for consistencies sake? J Rob, is the SSR jacked up from the CNC work, or was there some handwork blending
that "sabotaged it? I just can't see even if the intent was mega roller cam territory doing anything like this to the middle of the flow curve on purpose?

 

[yellow rose]

Is there a way We can sort of survey as many of these as possible for consistencies sake? J Rob, is the SSR jacked up from the CNC work, or was there some handwork blending
that "sabotaged it? I just can't see even if the intent was mega roller cam territory doing anything like this to the middle of the flow curve on purpose?

I've never seen an affordable CNC head that the short turns couldn't use some work. It's very costly to get the tool path to make the radius and you're still dealing with tool deflection and all that. The least that should be done is hand finishing the short turns.

 

[Cudafever]

I would like to know where the velocity probe was placed in the port to get the 321fps.
If there is a scar or bump in/on the floor were the cnc ended,(probably at the start of the ssr) a piece of 80 grit emory cloth could make a world of difference.
Thanks for the flow bench ###
Did you get a dial indicator on your cam lobes?