Understood, I am trying to establish whether this is a programmed FUBAR, by design or by accident. Or is there any hand finishing on these screwing it up.
Missed on this combo?
- Thread starter Ironmike
- Start date
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RAMM
Well-Known Member
I'm just guessing here but that velocity # 321fps is probably calculated from the CSA and the flow rate so it is an average velocity.
I have blended the "bump" on mine and it helped a very small amount--there is still a trough present and I'm not removing MORE short side to get rid of it. Short of welding the S.S. radius is just not that good. J.Rob
What is the cost of dyno time vs getting what you are looking for and being happy ?
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Don't ask me, this isn't my engine. J.Rob
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
Wow. Never did I say I wanted 600HP. All I wanted is to get the most out of the engine that I could. I went to the dyno and didn't really worry about 560 horsepower.........my issue was I wanted more torque to go along with that 560 horsepower.
Also, Tom IS a nice guy. When I handed him my heads I told him I'm pretty sure they're junk and needed to know for sure. I need good solid info. He checked em over and told me they'll make a lot more power than my dyno sheets show. All I need is the right cam. He NEVER said they were the best thing since sliced bread. He said they're fine to run.
Now someone mentioned Shady Dells flow numbers...........there's a reason his operation is called SHADY dell. I'd never say that without firsthand knowledge either.
Right now they are the heads I have. I'm gonna get them to work. I'm not throwing them in the garbage can yet. Yeah they were free, but I paid for the CNC work.
I guess if they never totally work out, I'll just have to keep the 540 HP slug that's in the car now, and have a spare shortblock instead of a spare engine.
Ya know this thread went a long way as a "let's help this guy out" before it turned to a "let's bash his ****". I was really enjoying it and learning some new things.
Kinda disappointed now.....
Also, Tom IS a nice guy. When I handed him my heads I told him I'm pretty sure they're junk and needed to know for sure. I need good solid info. He checked em over and told me they'll make a lot more power than my dyno sheets show. All I need is the right cam. He NEVER said they were the best thing since sliced bread. He said they're fine to run.
Now someone mentioned Shady Dells flow numbers...........there's a reason his operation is called SHADY dell. I'd never say that without firsthand knowledge either.
Right now they are the heads I have. I'm gonna get them to work. I'm not throwing them in the garbage can yet. Yeah they were free, but I paid for the CNC work.
I guess if they never totally work out, I'll just have to keep the 540 HP slug that's in the car now, and have a spare shortblock instead of a spare engine.
Ya know this thread went a long way as a "let's help this guy out" before it turned to a "let's bash his ****". I was really enjoying it and learning some new things.
Kinda disappointed now.....
abodyjim
Well-Known Member
Hopefully I didn't fall into bashing, I'm still very interested in how all this turns out being I picked a similar cam. If you do change it I hope you post what you choose and any results.
64physhy
Well-Known Member
They aren't junk, and are capable of making the power you want. I don't know if you saw my previous post, but my heads that were ported b Hughes were double checked by Brian at IMM, and the numbers were right on. It's a few things in your combo that are contributing. I can't help but wonder if the huge valves you have might be hurting velocity. The relative lack of torque is what caught my eye more so than your "disappointing" HP numbers. I'm sure both would be improved with a 950HP carb, good 1" spacer, and header/collector/extensions that fit your engine better. 3" collectors with 18" extensions on the headers that were used would improve it. I think your combo has potential with some tweeking.
Lustle
Well-Known Member
You say you never said you wanted 600 hp. But just the most out of it. Well with that cam and the heads that hughes advertises, that's 600 horse. If you're happy with 560. That's fine. Just don't say "you wanted the most out of it" when you really mean "I'll settle for what it does".
Tom is a nice guy. I don't see anyone saying he isn't. They will make more power than you have. And nobody said they should be the best thing since sliced bread. All I've said. Is they don't flow NEAR what hughes claims. And yes. They are fine to run.
I mentioned shady dells numbers. Whatever problems you have heard of them. I've always heard excellent things about them. That aside. The numbers I posted are very common ported J head numbers. I can get very similar results from half a dozen different sources. I just used shady cause it's right on their website. If you'd rather I can post numbers from somewhere else showing that your heads only flow close to ported J heads up to .500 lift. My point with this was that there obviously is still work that can be done. Specifically on the port. The SS. And spots other's have mentioned. And once again to show that your numbers are nowhere near what hughes advertised.
Nobody is saying throw out your heads. Stop overreacting. We are just trying to help you out. And yes. You paid for CNC work that doesn't do NEAR what they claim. Personally I like to get what I paid for. If you're happy. That's fine. Just don't get upset when we point out that part of the problems you've come on here to ask for help with, come from the heads.
And nobody said the engine is a slug. Except maybe you. You came on here to ask what was missing in your combo. We are trying to help you with that.
Nobody is bashing your ****. You asked if it was a missed combo. And a lot of guys, including some pro engine builders, have taken time out of their day to help. For free I might add. To try and find out what is going on and why. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean we are bashing your setup. You wanted our help to get the most out of it. And we are. If you don't like the answer. Then I guess don't ask the question?
If you want the knowledge and experience. It's here on the board. There's a ton of very helpful people here. Just don't take it so personal and overreact.
And we still haven't seen any cranking compression numbers. Or CC'd chambers. I honestly think your compression is another small part of the larger problem. The more you give us the more we can help.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
I was bashing my Hughes "ported" heads which I'm betting are the same as yours. You asked if the combo could be better-I'm telling you straight out that the heads are a MAJOR part of the problem. I commended you for getting the heads flow tested and returning to the dyno.
Tom is a nice guy and if you had brought me the heads to test I would have been just as diplomatic and said the same thing he did. If you told me about your experience honestly I would have told you the mid lift flow sucks because whoever ported the head made chips just for the sake of making chips and you are gonna need a cam that is 100% correct for this oddball situation.
Mike I really want to save you some time and money but retarding the cam and a $1500.00 carb aren't gonna get you there. J.Rob
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Ditto.
People come looking for help, answers, insight....then take it personal when they don't reach the goal and the parts/combo gets critiqued.
This is Mike's baby, naturally....he's disappointed...
Hey mike, put a dual plane on it if you want to make more torque or a smaller primary, do anything but take what we say personal.
Just learn from it.
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Well, lets step back a bit,.............1st I think that many w/the experience can offer real critical insight here......not particularly to "slam", but to emphatically point out
what appears to be a shortcoming in this particular CNC job. Your's is not the first. I also think that Tom was correct, Your engine can do a little better with those heads
as is, and didn't want to "slam" them in the process knowing they probably can't be improved w/o putting metal back......so why bother? But these threads are here for
others to learn from as well, and No one is paying us for our insight or opinion, so there's no obligation to be polite, ..it is our choice. Lol! Calling a 540HP SB a slug in
an A-body, a lot of members here wish they had that problem!! Just My .02............................
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
These threads are like when a woman asks if she looks fat in these jeans....very difficult to answer
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
I did post that I cc'd the chambers myself. 68cc. All of them. I also mentioned that I do run a 950HP. Took it right off of my in-car engine. It's been a workhorse for me. For some reason, I could not get cranking compression numbers. Tried jumping an old starter ........just didn't have enough time before I had to pull the heads. All I know is the formula says 11.4 to 1. Should have checked it on the dyno but didnt.
All I read was the short side was murdered and could not be fixed, without a million dollars and hundreds of hours. And someone screamed something about MEGA reversion. All that, in my mind, said scrap 'em.
In all the posts on the whole thread, it's the only time I took anything personal. I never do..Maybe it was the delivery of a couple posts. Maybe I'm a little pissed at mysef, too. I believed Hughes.
So now I think I have 2 choices.
Put an Airgap on with a 1 inch spacer. Get a cam ground that will take advantage of the intake and the crappy heads and hope I can get decent numbers and it won't fall on its face after 6000 RPM. I don't really know what kind of power an Airgap can make.
I DID run one on a 485 horse motor that was a monster until it fell flat at 6100. If I thought the AirGap with the right cam could make 560 on this thing with a WAY better torque curve, I'd do it in a minute.
Or.....Stick with my Super Victor and as above, try to find a cam that will help with the reversion and low mid lift flow. No underhood room for the SV and a spacer.
I already decided that cam has to go.
maybe instead of all the Hughes bashing, give Dave a call, I'm sure he can help with a cam choice to reach your power goal.
I think now that you have real flow bench ### and have a dyno sheet to boot............You have a LOT OF INFO for any cam grinder to get it right the 2nt time.....................
You need to decide on the intake, before you look for a new cam.
You need to decide on the intake, before you look for a new cam.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I don't fall over and slobber over the AG like everyone else.
Like I said, I would have flowed your heads backwards and at some different pressures to see what really is happening. Who knows....the valve job may suck (I'd bet it does) and a little fluff and buff on the short turns may have done the trick.
I have said it many times, and I'll say it again, just flowing at one test pressure is only what to do if you are comparing something quickly, like a mid lift number or what the head is doing at max lift, or just to compare things overall. It's just too vague at one test pressure to get a better picture of what's happening.
I never back cut a valve, unless there is a specific reason I want low lift flow. It induces reversion. Your valves are back cut.
I don't think you have junk. I don't even think the intake is junk. The complaint I heard was the runners are too big. On a correctly done 400 inch small block, it's hard to get the runner too big. It's hard to get the runner too big on 340 inches, so I'm not buying that.
I'd call more than one cam company and MAKE them convince you why what they want is what is correct. Like I said, I called one cam company and he said my head was up my ***. But, when questioned he had a hard time convincing me. You don't have enough intake duration (or you have too much exhaust duration) and your LSA is too wide for your induction system and the mid numbers are low.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
You're double talking in your last reply, high low mid lift flow is bad you go on after thand tell mike he suffers from poor low mid lift flow.. and the one post before that you got the last part right, that's it.
For the cam he has, had, he should of ran a Vic 340 or even a worked dual plane with a spacer. I have a smaller cam than he did and mine pulls into 7000 rpms...but I have really high low and mid lift and you say that sucks and makes reversion and kills power yadda yadda ...so that should hurt me right? I think your in unfamiliar territory.
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I think I don't care what you think.
If you think low lift flow is where it's at, that's on you.
Read what I said again. I said look at the valve job and some other things.
You'd argue with a stop sign if it could talk back.
Take a powder.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Everyone can go back and read every post in every thread you post in, you go sideways in every single one. Not foolin anyone...
Back on ignore you go...
Ironmike
Well-Known Member
Hey the cam guy that said your head was up your *** wasn't named Jim was it? I think ya know who I mean.....I hope it wasn't him cause that's one of the guys I planned to call.
I know I need more duration on the intake side. Not sure I completely get reversion, but have an idea. What do you think about a split duration with LESS on the exhaust side? Or how bout LESS lift on the exhaust side?
Seems like I want to make the exhaust less efficient now...........far as I can understand it.
Now as for asking Dave Hughes to spec me a cam, I won't do that. I've spoken to him....he's a good guy to talk to and I really believe he means well, but I don't know if he's the guy for that.
Tell ya what . He really wants his stuff to be good and he really appreciates your business. That's a fact.
Monday will be phone day. Shane at Crower, RacerBrown, maybe call Bullet and see what they think about the dyno numbers. I think they missed on this combo as well as me.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
j par
Well-hung Member
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
No, it wasn't Jim. Ill PM you so you know who I called.
It's not just reversion that's a *****. It's does the head flow as well backwards as it does in forward direction. If the head flows just as good backwards, any reversion you have at overlap is magnified. Thats why I don't like back cuts, except with SOME 50* seats and all the 55* seats I have used can use a back cut. But a 45* seat almost never a back cut. Why? Because it increases low lift flow and makes the low lift flow better backwards. Now, as the exhaust valve is closing and there is a low pressure in the exhaust port and the header and you open the intake, all that initial flow (which at low lift is MUCH higher than what the flow bench says at 28 inches) doesn't go into the chamber, but right across the seat and out the exhaust port.
If you are closing the intake too late, the piston goes around BDC and pushes the intake charge back out the intake port. This is what causes standoff and you can see it with stack injectors as fuel will come back out the stacks at idle. If you have a carb, every time air goes through the booster it picks up fuel. So, the air stream picks up fuel on the way in, the piston pushes the column of air goes back out the carb and picks up fuel again (now twice what you need) and then the air turns around to go back into the engine and it gets air a third time (now that is 3 times the fuel you need. You can see exhaust on the bottom of the carb and sometime in the carb when this happens. Usually with a long, slow lobe do you see this. Not so much any more.
There is a good article and graph by Jim McFarland on the HotRod site but damn if I can post the link to it. The graph shows how reversion is much more significant at overlap the intake valve closing.
I think there is more going on with your stuff that just the porting. I've seen many many valve jobs that were power killers. I already talked about back cuts, but the numbers guys love the fact that a back cut almost always looks good on the flow bench. Seat width is a big deal, but th angle and width of the top cut is HUGHE, specifically when it comes to pressure recovery. Your heads could be a valve job away from being what they are advertised.
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