Missed on this combo?

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Funny. I've asked them 3 times, specifically "what angles are used in your racing valve job"? I don't think they know. I really didn't like the 2.08 intake valve either. What the hell happened to the 2.05?

Heads are off now man. I want to do everything I can to get them better.

A buddy picked up 82 horsepower from 1 brand new valve job to another. Granted it's a big HP W9 motor, but 80 horsepower is substantial none the less.
 
Funny. I've asked them 3 times, specifically "what angles are used in your racing valve job"? I don't think they know. I really didn't like the 2.08 intake valve either. What the hell happened to the 2.05?

Heads are off now man. I want to do everything I can to get them better.

A buddy picked up 82 horsepower from 1 brand new valve job to another. Granted it's a big HP W9 motor, but 80 horsepower is substantial none the less.


I would have *probably* used a 50 degree seat on your deal with a 2.05 valve. But that doesn't advertise as well. You have enough lift, but the air speed may be a bit slow for it. Maybe a 48* seat.

You are correct in the 2.08 valve because it *generally* makes low lift numbers go up but the cross section can't support the big valve at higher lift numbers. But your low and mid numbers are down, which is why I'm thinking valve job and a short turn fluff and buff. Plus fix the cam.

BTW, your inbox is full.
 
All I read was the short side was murdered and could not be fixed, without a million dollars and hundreds of hours. And someone screamed something about MEGA reversion. All that, in my mind, said scrap 'em.

In all the posts on the whole thread, it's the only time I took anything personal. I never do..Maybe it was the delivery of a couple posts. Maybe I'm a little pissed at mysef, too. I believed Hughes.

You are just embarrassed by believing Hughes' claims. I know I am and I'm supposed to be more knowledgeable than the Maytag repairman about this stuff. I KNEW when I placed the +3400$ order that they wouldn't flow what they claimed but I'd be cool with a good flow curve (proper port design) and an honest 300CFM-so when I unboxed them and stuck my finger on the S.S. my stomach dropped . Seriously I felt sick because I had been HAD.

I am trying to help. J.Rob
 
maybe instead of all the Hughes bashing, give Dave a call, I'm sure he can help with a cam choice to reach your power goal.

Yeah give him a call , after you tell him his heads don't flow he will insult you and your flow bench guy. J.Rob
 
I'll give my extremely limited experience with Hughes. I bought their small block roller rockers and they were excellent so far I like them a lot. BUT- when I called to ask why they're studs in my heads and when I tighten there nut all the way down I still have a quarter inch gap before the rocker shaft touches the top of the head? And they said if everything's tight then it's all good to run? But I'm telling you there's that quarter inch space between the bottom of the shaft and the head? anyways I thanked them for their help and had to stack some washers between the spacer and the nut to make sure the shafts held down against the head. They were kind, answered all my questions but we're actually no help figuring it out...
 
I don't fall over and slobber over the AG like everyone else. A dual plane is not the answer here. Agreed.

Like I said, I would have flowed your heads backwards and at some different pressures to see what really is happening. Who knows....the valve job may suck (I'd bet it does) and a little fluff and buff on the short turns may have done the trick. All cylinder heads flow better backwards until about .250"-.300" lift. The valve job does suck 'cuz there ain't no chamber to support the NON-existant top cut. Believe me more "fluff and buff" on the S.S. will only make things worse.

I have said it many times, and I'll say it again, just flowing at one test pressure is only what to do if you are comparing something quickly, like a mid lift number or what the head is doing at max lift, or just to compare things overall. It's just too vague at one test pressure to get a better picture of what's happening. I'm $90/hr and if you want me to spend hours flowing a port this way and that way at all different test pressures-then come on down. One look at the heads and you will have an idea of how it is going to go on the bench.

I never back cut a valve, unless there is a specific reason I want low lift flow. It induces reversion. Your valves are back cut.I agree.

I don't think you have junk. I don't even think the intake is junk. The complaint I heard was the runners are too big. On a correctly done 400 inch small block, it's hard to get the runner too big. It's hard to get the runner too big on 340 inches, so I'm not buying that. The runner isn't too big, it's just plain wrong. I could explain why I hate the bowl shape and even the chamber but screw that.

I'd call more than one cam company and MAKE them convince you why what they want is what is correct. Like I said, I called one cam company and he said my head was up my ***. But, when questioned he had a hard time convincing me. You don't have enough intake duration (or you have too much exhaust duration) and your LSA is too wide for your induction system and the mid numbers are low.The more phone calls he makes the more questions will arise because Mike is an inquisitive type. Make one phone call to a company you trust. You're assessment of the duration I agree with--the LSA however is too narrow as is. This combo NEEDS more lift , more intake duration and possibly less exhaust with respect to the intake. [/QUOTE]

God I love my Sunday mornings. J.Rob
 
No, it wasn't Jim. Ill PM you so you know who I called.

It's not just reversion that's a *****. It's does the head flow as well backwards as it does in forward direction. If the head flows just as good backwards, any reversion you have at overlap is magnified. Thats why I don't like back cuts, except with SOME 50* seats and all the 55* seats I have used can use a back cut. You use a lot of 50/55 degree seats do you? But a 45* seat almost never a back cut. Why? Because it increases low lift flow and makes the low lift flow better backwards. Now, as the exhaust valve is closing and there is a low pressure in the exhaust port and the header and you open the intake, all that initial flow (which at low lift is MUCH higher than what the flow bench says at 28 inches) doesn't go into the chamber, but right across the seat and out the exhaust port.

If you are closing the intake too late, the piston goes around BDC and pushes the intake charge back out the intake port. This is what causes standoff and you can see it with stack injectors as fuel will come back out the stacks at idle. If you have a carb, every time air goes through the booster it picks up fuel. So, the air stream picks up fuel on the way in, the piston pushes the column of air goes back out the carb and picks up fuel again (now twice what you need) and then the air turns around to go back into the engine and it gets air a third time (now that is 3 times the fuel you need. You can see exhaust on the bottom of the carb and sometime in the carb when this happens. Usually with a long, slow lobe do you see this. Not so much any more. The cam is seldom the culprit for the above paragraph--it was the old, poor flowing, shitty combustion chamber, turbulent, valve limited heads that were responsible for exhaust up the carb. LOL

There is a good article and graph by Jim McFarland on the HotRod site but damn if I can post the link to it. The graph shows how reversion is much more significant at overlap the intake valve closing. But you keep recommending a tighter LSA which increases the overlap triangle you just contradicted yourself--STOP. Just stop.

I think there is more going on with your stuff that just the porting. I've seen many many valve jobs that were power killers. I already talked about back cuts, but the numbers guys love the fact that a back cut almost always looks good on the flow bench.Back-cuts do always look good on the bench--I almost never do them. Seat width is a big deal,Correct and wider is better in this case -not sayin why but th angle and width of the top cut is HUGHECorrect and the chamber machining removes any and all chance of an optimum top cut being achieved, specifically when it comes to pressure recovery. Your heads could be a valve job away from being what they are advertised.If the heads are like mine short of welding up the chamber ain't no valve job away from being any better.[/QUOTE]

J.Rob

 
Funny. I've asked them 3 times, specifically "what angles are used in your racing valve job"? I don't think they know. I really didn't like the 2.08 intake valve either. What the hell happened to the 2.05?

Heads are off now man. I want to do everything I can to get them better.

A buddy picked up 82 horsepower from 1 brand new valve job to another. Granted it's a big HP W9 motor, but 80 horsepower is substantial none the less.

You're correct that they can't answer 'cuz they don't know. I really don't like the 2.08" either but when you stand up and shape the bowl the way they do which is umm --not good, then you NEED a big valve to try and salvage everything you can. If you look into and calculate the discharge co-efficient of these heads you will start to see why and just how much of an obstacle to power production they really are.
I'm just as frustrated by the heads as anyone, and I really can't come up with any quick fix/Band-Aid/ solution to them. I don't really want to unleash my entire assessment of my B.M.'s but the S.S. is only 1 of 4 major problems. When I do my CNC shaping in the EQ magnum bowls I have a proprietary ovality designed in--it ain't much but it's important and more importantly it works. If I could do it all over again, when I place that order with Hughes I would ask them to machine the pushrod holes and that's it. J.Rob
 
I would have *probably* used a 50 degree seat on your deal with a 2.05 valve. But that doesn't advertise as well. You have enough lift, but the air speed may be a bit slow for it. Maybe a 48* seat. Oddly enough this may help in this case but I don't think you know why.

You are correct in the 2.08 valve because it *generally* makes low lift numbers go up but the cross section can't support the big valve at higher lift numbers. But your low and mid numbers are down, which is why I'm thinking valve job and a short turn fluff and buff. Plus fix the cam. At his measured flow rates the cross section isn't the problem. It's the bloody shape of it all. The S.S. /bowl/chamber/V.J.! His low and mid numbers are exactly what you would expect from the shape!

BTW, your inbox is full.Why the secrets?[/QUOTE]

J.Rob
 
So do these heads come with 2.05 or 2.08 have heard both?
J. rob so the larger valve is what's making the seat a mess, as in there is not enough seat material to do a proper valve/seat job?
aka a 2.02 would actually perform better do to material there to make a nice top cut, wider, slow the air down more efficiently in to the combustion chamber?
 
Great. Point out where I contradicted myself you idiot.
Now I'm the idiot?
As you screw this thread like most others you post in?
You're really helping mike now...huh?
like when you get into an argument with cam guy who tells you your head is up your ***, which it is, you say strong low/mid numbers are a bad thing...then at the end of the same post say that's Mike's problem, boy that might confuse it some, you basically name everything under the sun saying that's the problem....you don't really know, you just like to talk...straight up.

Post what you do, quit telling us you can't figure out how to post pics , you can't show anything....you can't prove you aren't a complete fraud. If mike listens to you anymore he will go broke and be more disappointed.
Mike says he is happy with the hp, he wants more torque....so change the intake and header, fix the extension issue. Said it once , said it again. Mike hasn't responded to my advice...obviously some hesitation by the high pressure advice from all sides....so...My last thought on this...is way too much attention was paid to the wrong things , by mike, in this build...but that's what happens when you listen to the wrong people.

Good luck, mike.
 
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RAMM, he pm's because he doesn't want people to see he doesn't understand or really know what he's talking about. This is getting comical.
 
So do these heads come with 2.05 or 2.08 have heard both?
J. rob so the larger valve is what's making the seat a mess, as in there is not enough seat material to do a proper valve/seat job?
aka a 2.02 would actually perform better do to material there to make a nice top cut, wider, slow the air down more efficiently in to the combustion chamber?

I asked them about a 2.02" and they said nobody wanted it and it wouldn't sell. They send them out the door with a 2.08" and I am referring too the B.M.'s here. No the larger valve isn't the problem by itself. You have to understand how the bowl, seat and chamber work together to get the full picture of why their "porting" (and I use that term loosely) is just wrong. J.Rob
 
You are just embarrassed by believing Hughes' claims. I know I am and I'm supposed to be more knowledgeable than the Maytag repairman about this stuff. I KNEW when I placed the +3400$ order that they wouldn't flow what they claimed but I'd be cool with a good flow curve (proper port design) and an honest 300CFM-so when I unboxed them and stuck my finger on the S.S. my stomach dropped . Seriously I felt sick because I had been HAD.


I am trying to help. J.Rob

We disagree and that's fine, but I do believe a worked dp would not hurt the top end really, not with that cam, and only bring the bottom up...and the runner velocity could only help him on the intake side.
Based on the flow @ lift its easy to say "more lift", hemi grind, etc... Pick your path, some get you there quicker.
 
Now I'm the idiot?
As you screw this thread like most others you post in?
You're really helping mike now...huh?
like when you get into an argument with cam guy who tells you your head is up your ***, which it is, you say strong low/mid numbers are a bad thing...then at the end of the same post say that's Mike's problem, boy that might confuse it some, you basically name everything under the sun saying that's the problem....you don't really know, you just like to talk...straight up.

Post what you do, quit telling us you can't figure out how to post pics , you can't show anything....you can't prove you aren't a complete fraud. If mike listens to you anymore he will go broke and be more disappointed.
Mike says he is happy with the hp, he wants more torque....so change the intake and header, fix the extension issue. Said it once , said it again. Mike hasn't responded to my advice...obviously some hesitation by the high pressure advice from all sides....so...My last thought on this...is way too much attention was paid to the wrong things , by mike, in this build...but that's what happens when you listen to the wrong people.

Good luck, mike.
Why does a dual plane intake and header extension make a difference? because the longer runner has more mass and help to keep the reversion out, better. the header extension does the same thing, keep or help pull the exh out during overlap.
changing the cam grind can help do the same thing.
changing the low lift flow can help tooooo.
you figure out how much lift there is at max overlap between the intake and exh. that lift is where we want to kill as much flow as possible on the intake side. Not at .300 + lift not at mid life or at high lift.

Changing any of these things Help Bottom End Power.
And that's what he wants, right.
 
I have a cd from speed talk where they interviewed Darin Morgan. In the interview they were talking about pressure recovery, low lift flow and he stated " when that intake valve pop off its seat, i want it to flow nothing"! Now that's not his exact words but even a Pro Stock High High Revving eng that need the max amount of air flowing through there heads, Still don't want it to start when the valve first opens.
Just another thought.
 
I have a cd from speed talk where they interviewed Darin Morgan. In the interview they were talking about pressure recovery, low lift flow and he stated " when that intake valve pop off its seat, i want it to flow nothing"! Now that's not his exact words but even a Pro Stock High High Revving eng that need the max amount of air flowing through there heads, Still don't want it to start when the valve first opens.
Just another thought.

Yes I understand this, and its correct to an extent, as in it has its place.
It matters what you're building and how.
It all just starts getting fetched beyond what this is, that's when I'm done, its just a waste at a certain point because it gets too far away from what it is.
At least we get to see who knows something...and who don't
 
flow.jpg


Thought I'd share my CNC head experience. These are my IndyBrocks CNC'd by Indy, as we can see the advertised flow #s didn't exactly measure up. After recutting the valve seats and adding a good valve the numbers were much better. Don't give up on the heads yet.

Thats suppose to be 248 at .400 on the far right column
 
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I do know why a steeper valve angle would help.

I've not seen the valve job. You have. You should know then if it's at least an acceptable valve job.


I'm not going to PUBLICALLY name the cam company I called. Why, because internet nazis like moparunofficial and you are heading there, will make a big stink about it.

I called to validate my opinion, but it did not happen and I had the BALLS to tell mike what ONE particular cam grinder thought with the limited data he was given. And he didn't change MY mind as to the problem. We all KNOW (we SHOULD know) if you put 10 cam grinders in a room in 15 minutes there will be a fist fight. 15 minutes there will be another, because the guys fighting have now joined hands and have found a different guy who disagrees.

It's not a seceret that family's have been wrecked over cam designs, software, naming rights and all that ****.

The real problem is we AGREE most of the time. This pisses you off. Deal with it.
 
Yes I understand this, and its correct to an extent, as in it has its place.
It matters what you're building and how.
It all just starts getting fetched beyond what this is, that's when I'm done, its just a waste at a certain point because it gets too far away from what it is.
At least we get to see who knows something...and who don't


You could have learned something from cudaracers post but you blew it right off.

It actually validates what I've been saying.
 
If Indy flowed theirs in Indianapolis and you in Washington state, then I'd say those numbers are spot on. At What elevation do you think edelbrock's flow bench sits? I'd guess 1000 -1500 ft is worth 10 percent.
View attachment 1715029778

Thought I'd share my CNC head experience. These are my IndyBrocks CNC'd by Indy, as we can see the advertised flow #s didn't exactly measure up. After recutting the valve seats and adding a good valve the numbers were much better. Don't give up on the heads yet.

Thats suppose to be 248 at .400 on the far right column
 
I asked them about a 2.02" and they said nobody wanted it and it wouldn't sell. They send them out the door with a 2.08" and I am referring too the B.M.'s here. No the larger valve isn't the problem by itself. You have to understand how the bowl, seat and chamber work together to get the full picture of why their "porting" (and I use that term loosely) is just wrong. J.Rob


I get the issue. I'm absolutely not doubting what Dave said about no one buying them. I did my own heads with 2.02 valves and everyone said I was crazy. It's all about marketing. Surely a 2.08 valve will kick the hell out of a 2.02 valve. In advertising.

BTW, I've been using seats steeper than 45 since about 2000. That's how OLD the technology is. It's hard to do it on a street strip deal because...

A) If you go from a 45 to a 50* seat it makes the margin thin, quick.
2) It takes a different shape valve to make the steeper seat work correctly, and guys don't want to buy anything that isn't interns normal.
B) The steeper the seat, changes the way you face the valve.
1) There are other reasons but I'm sure you know them.

BTW, you can make the back cut as wide as you want it, it doesn't make a difference. As long as it runs up to the seat is all that matters and it's still a bad idea in most cases.
 
If Indy flowed theirs in Indianapolis and you in Washington state, then I'd say those numbers are spot on. At What elevation do you think edelbrock's flow bench sits? I'd guess 1000 -1500 ft is worth 10 percent.


They both should be using corrected numbers, not actual numbers. Otherwise, you can flow a head in July and then flow it again in October and expect the numbers to be worth anything. Doesn't matter what state or continent you live on.
 
So does the bench calibrate itself? I don't know that's why I'm asking.
 
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