My take on the oiling system crossover tube for the small block
- Thread starter Jadaharabi
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Well there is a good example of where the crossover would have helped.
replicaracer43
Grumpy Old Man
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If the crossover helps that, it's just because your feeding the leaks from 2 directions instead of 1. The better solution in my opinion, is Bush the lifter bores, or at minimum, block the oil to driver side lifter galley at the front. But then only if your using a solid flat tappet cam, or solid roller. If your using a hydraulic cam, odds are you can't spin it high enough anyway.
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Without being able to see your block it's a coulda shoulda woulda deal.
Are you missing the point of the crossover is used on a motor using hydraulic lifters?
Solid lifters you either tube the passenger side or bush the lifter bores.
replicaracer43
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No, I dont think I'm missing the point at all. I've never had a sbm turn enough rpm with a hydraulic cam, to need any "fixes" to the oiling system. And I have quite a bit of experience with oval track mopars, and sustained rpm.
Then your motor that spun the bearings had a solid cam?
Sorry about your motor not wanting to rev. You might want to look into that.
replicaracer43
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Dude, what is your problem? I dont have a engine with spun bearings, nor have I ever had a engine that wouldn't rev. I thought this was a friendly discussion of ideas between people with experience, sorry I interjected, carry on with whatever you wanna believe.
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My mistake I assumed they were your engines that had the front two rods go out on.
You posted your motor didn't turn enough rpm to need "fixes".
What is your problem?
replicaracer43
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You have a severe reading comprehension problem. I said, in my EXPERIENCE, you can't turn enough rpm with a hydraulic cam to need any of these crossover bandaids, and this is my last post on the subject, because I ain't gonna waste time arguing with some keyboard warrior engine builder. I have been there, done that, and I know damn well what does, and doesn't work. Have a great day, and Mopar to ya!
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I'm sure you're a great engine builder in your mind.
These early system modification has been done for over 45 years.
I appreciate your going away since you aren't adding anything to the thread.
Please refer to post #1.
When a post goes on for 15 pages about an un-needed tube it’s going to turn into a train wreck. Lol
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Are you running a hydraulic cam? If so how are you getting your Motors to live?
Wait a minute you've got a oil line feeding the front on that motor coming up from the oil filter. Don't you?
A memory Refresher Post Number One picture number 6
Change in plans. Another new build begins
Isn't that a different way of doing the same thing. Which is keeping the bottom end alive.
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
For the record, I don't care what you think. I've tried to explain to you why you are wrong from EXPERIENCE. But your book says otherwise. I say again, the crossover doesn't do ****, and it should have been removed from the books or corrected decades ago.
I'm pissed because some people are pissed I didn't drop everything and make the video on Sunday. **** happens. I'd bet everything I have that the video still won't convince a stiff necked fool like you anyway. But I will make a video. You can't fix an oil timing issue with a cross over and that's why the rods don't oil when the RPM goes up.
Just so you know, my friends want to compete in a small tire heads up class. Who in their right mind would use Chrysler architecture for something like that. Eventually, since both are retired, have the money and the time and some sponsors lined up, want to get to compete in stuff like No Prep Kings. So why would I tell them to run anything Chrysler????? That would be ignorant. If they want to go N/A they can build a Big Chief headed GM based engine for less than HALF of a Predator head Chrysler and it will out horsepower the Chrysler all day long. If they go with a blower in in some form, they can look at a Goodwin Hemi (at 75 grand a copy...yup that Chrysler stuff is very expensive like I say) or maybe a Brad or AJPE deal. Or, I'd rather they skip the hemi issues (yes they have issues) and use the AJPE 481X platform. I have actual experience with that. In fact, that engine was the first in the sixes and over 200 in legal AA/GS trim. Beat the Hemis to it.
I know I'm talking over your head and out of your league.
I'll make a video and explain is simple language as best I can why the crossover is stupid. You can't fix stupid and most won't listen.
As a primer for those wanting to learn, the settled, indisputable SCIENCE says you need FULL PRESSURE and FULL FLOW to the rods when the piston is approximately 70 degrees ATDC. This is SETTLED. To dispute this is ignorant. Virtually every race platform today has that oil timing, but the Chrysler does not. You can't fix that with a crossover.
Look at the SBC. When the oil feed hole in the crank is lined up with the oil feed hole in the block, the piston is ~ 70 degrees ATDC. Period. End of discussion. Now use your imagination here and think for yourself instead of relying on books that were wrong before they were typeset.
Look at a SBC and a SBM crank side by each. You will note that the oil feed hole in the crank is in the same exact location on both cranks. Now look at the blocks. I'm talking about your garden variety, junk **** SBC, not a current block with priority oiling (which is exactly the same timing to the rods, it just feeds the mains before the lifters which is the opposite of the original passenger car crap). You'll note that the oil feed hole to the crank is in the 12 o'clock position when viewing from the front of the block. Again, when the hole in the block is lined up with the hole in the crank you'll see the piston is ~ 70 degrees ATDC. Now look at the Chrysler block. You'll see that the oil feed hole is closer to 11 o'clock. And you say who cares? It's not that far. But it is. It might as well be a mile. Since the feed hole in the crank to the rods is the same as the SBC, it means that the oil to the rods for the Chrysler is WAY TOO EARLY. As RPM goes up, this magnifies the issue. At lower RPM's and power levels, you can get by with full groove mains putting oil to the rods all the time (although it eats power) and get the RPM's up higher than with 1/2 groove bearings.
You will reach the point in power and/or RPM where you can never fix or band aid the oil timing issue. You can't use a full groove main to fix it, you can't notch or groove the bearing bore to band aid it. It needs FULL PRESSURE and FLOW at the correct time. Period.
So you can argue all you want for the crossover but I just explained to you, in 9th grade English why it doesn't work. If you think I'm wrong, then by all means, tell me where I'm wrong and why and how the crossover fixes the oil timing issue.
If you can't explain why the crossover works, STOP telling people to do it.
Here is how you make a SBM live to ABOUT 7500 relatively reliably.
1. Full groove mains.
2. High volume pump with a minimum of 80 psi hot at WOT.
3. As big a pan as you can fit with a windage tray. A QUALITY crank scraper is a big help.
4. Make the inlet side of the pump as big as you can. You can't make it too big.
5. Tube the passenger side gallery and plug the drivers side gallery with a set screw in the #1 main bearing bore or bush the lifter bores. If you still think hydraulic lifters are cool, you can drill .0625 holes in the tube and put a .187 hole in the drivers side set screw. If you used bushings a .0625 hole in each bushing is more than enough oil to run the lifters.
6. Drill the feed holes from the gallery to the main bearing bores to 9/32 (.287).
7. Set your clearances correctly. If you are running a Pcar block and rods, you'll need .0025-.0028 on the rods and mains and no heavier than a 40 grade oil. If you have a good block and rods you can squeeze the mains to .0022-.0025 and the rods .0021-.0023 and nothing heavier than a 40 grade oil.
If you do that and can't make it live under 7500 you have other issues. And a crossover won't help that either.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Mostly I keep you on ignore because you ain't worth the time. If you go find the thread Duane started I think it's in there. I also wrote it out AGAIN. It ain't that hard.
Funny, I feel the same way about you to.
Thanks for the lead.
This is a reply to your nice long thread post. Let's get the record straight. You haven't explained squat. You have been calling the Chrysler Engineers effing idiot and stupid idiots. Sorry but I don't think that you can carry on a normal conversation. You have no experience with the crossover tube therefore it doesn't work because you say so. LMAO.
Believe me nobody is pissed at you for not stopping and making a video because nobody cares if you live or die.
More of your bad-mouthing Chrysler go Chevy now you attack me the only head around here is the one up your butt.
70 degrees 70 degrees 70 degrees did I say it enough 70 degrees 70 degrees.
As for the 7500 reliability 1 through 7 if you change number 5 to install the crossover tube I would say you nailed it but you didn't because you're smarter than the Chrysler engineers and you know best.
Basically you haven't told us much of anything and of course you're always talking about this video that you're going to make that never seems to get made all you've done is call names and cus trying to bully me and others to worship your every word.
I've already seen a sample of your work.
I was not impressed with the oil pouring out of it as you pour oil in it while it's running.
You should not be allowed to be near other people's Motors.
Please keep me on your ignore list the only one impressed with your great abilities is yourself.
Believe me nobody is pissed at you for not stopping and making a video because nobody cares if you live or die.
More of your bad-mouthing Chrysler go Chevy now you attack me the only head around here is the one up your butt.
70 degrees 70 degrees 70 degrees did I say it enough 70 degrees 70 degrees.
As for the 7500 reliability 1 through 7 if you change number 5 to install the crossover tube I would say you nailed it but you didn't because you're smarter than the Chrysler engineers and you know best.
Basically you haven't told us much of anything and of course you're always talking about this video that you're going to make that never seems to get made all you've done is call names and cus trying to bully me and others to worship your every word.
I've already seen a sample of your work.
I was not impressed with the oil pouring out of it as you pour oil in it while it's running.
You should not be allowed to be near other people's Motors.
Please keep me on your ignore list the only one impressed with your great abilities is yourself.
You forgot to ask him about ... oh what was it again, a big bad Buick he built that made 850ft. Lbs. of torque just off of idle I think it was.
That’s when he blew his stack and scattered his brains all over the board ripping me a new one and ignoring the mods until he was banned under “Mad Scientist” a good while back.
Now that I think about it, didn’t he have the magic parts list to a 35mpg TQ small block 340 that made 430hp or so?
True colors coming out.....
That’s when he blew his stack and scattered his brains all over the board ripping me a new one and ignoring the mods until he was banned under “Mad Scientist” a good while back.
Now that I think about it, didn’t he have the magic parts list to a 35mpg TQ small block 340 that made 430hp or so?
True colors coming out.....
What say you, Sir ! You have been there, done that for over 40 years.
I'm looking forward to any input you may have. Thanks
What he said! ^^^^^^
Hey I’m just a backwoods hack, retired Millwright in a steel mill, that taugh myself how to build engines. I tube my blocks and block some holes and make some bigger. I like big bearing clearances, under 7000 rpm engines with ported intakes and good flowing heads. I leave the tricks to the tricksters and high budget builds for the rich guys. Simple is my middle name.
And at your leisure, show us the way! I appreciate what you’re doing here on the fourm boss.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
I've been building motors for 60+ years
I will consider what YR has to say seriously
I will probably learn something new
I remember when we got billet sbm cranks made the manufacture changed the timing and did not like "cross drilling"
about the cross feed- don't hurt
but you are trying to maximize flow to the feed for rods 1 and 2
"Keep your eye on the prize"
I have a long step reamer that I have not used in many years for the tubes
bushings are the way to go
as you can true up the indexing, lengthen the lifter bore, and fine tune the oil leaks
I will consider what YR has to say seriously
I will probably learn something new
I remember when we got billet sbm cranks made the manufacture changed the timing and did not like "cross drilling"
about the cross feed- don't hurt
but you are trying to maximize flow to the feed for rods 1 and 2
"Keep your eye on the prize"
I have a long step reamer that I have not used in many years for the tubes
bushings are the way to go
as you can true up the indexing, lengthen the lifter bore, and fine tune the oil leaks
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Again, you can't explain, in your language why the crossover works. That's on YOU. If you don't agree with the 70 degree science, again, that's on YOU being unwilling to listen and learn.
I could give a single crap what Chrysler has said and done after about 1980. They have been screwing racers over for decades. If you don't race, you can't understand that. I would never tell ANYONE, EVER to use a Chrysler based engine who needs to make competitive horsepower in a heads up class. That would be ignorant. And it would be criminal to a customer. And not only that, these guys are my FRIENDS. Why would I screw them over and help them build something that wouldn't be competitive??? That's just wrong. And stupid.
For what it's worth, the oil leak was a bad fitting. It was damn hard to even see it leak. I found it by pressure testing it. I wasn't about to shut down an engine on break in when the oil leak wansnt a big deal. I removed the remote filter and put the right angle adapter back on and there is no leak.
Your arrogance is appalling. If you think an oil leak on start up is a big deal, you've not done much in the real world.
Also, I'm waiting for you to explain how the crossover works. My goal is to help Chrysler guys STOP doing and repeating ignorant ****. You are promulgating ignorance. If you a have a friend who is a Chrysler engineer, call him up and make him explain it to him. We KNOW the Chevy junk will oil. They don't have a crossover and the oiling systems are so close it's basically the same. Yet the Chevy will oil. So what's the difference. Oh yeah, it's the crossover tube. NOT.
When you can explain the crossover, and how it works, or your Chrysler engineer friend can explain it and make it believable, they are wrong. BTW, I didn't figure this out on my own. The oil timing was figured out decades ago. The fix wasn't figures out by me. It was done by a hydraulics engineer who developed the fix for a guy who was running modified eliminator. I eventually bought the complete engine from the owner in 1986.
Because I've been fortunate to be around people who are much smarter than I am, before I bought that engine I had my hydraulics engineer friend meet me at the owners house. And he brought his engineer buddy over. We tool the pan off and the owner let me look at anything I wanted. We had several oil system drawings to look at.
After about an hour and a half, my buddy says "so you put the oil in the cap to correct the oil timing?" And the other engineer geeked out and said "yep". That's the only way to fix it. Then I promptly pulled out the books with the crossover tube. My buddy said "WTF does that do." And I say "it slows the oil down to make it down to the main." And both engineers said " that's 100% bullshit. That tube does nothing".
Again, rather than rung our mouth, explain how your way works.
I'm waiting. BTW, you're not on ignore. I'm hoping you'll listen and learn. The guy on ignore won't learn.
CMcAllister
Well-Known Member
The crossover tube is crap. The left side galley should be dry. The only reason for oil there is hydraulic lifters or oil through pushrods and I wouldn't use either of those either. Not with OE style rocker shafts. However, a direct oil auxiliary line putting oil into the front of the right galley is a good idea. This can be plumbed to the passages at the back of the block, the filter adapter or wherever and run under the intake or externally to the front of the block.
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Your opinion does not even fit into the subject of this thread. It's very hard to run the left side empty when you're trying to lube and fill the hydraulic lifters.
I will address yellow roses post soon. However after seeing his post in the political section he may not be on this website too much longer. LOL
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