I'm actually agreeing with you. Just so happens in my particular case it worked and worked well. You are 100% right in that no two engines will ever be the same and have the same needs. Ain't happenin.
Overheating 360 new engine
- Thread starter Slappy
- Start date
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It just seems like there’s a lot of “it has to be this very specific thing or it’s stupid” and that’s not helpful, whether it’s a mechanical fan or a 160° coolant temp or whatever.
I mean, I’m sure Rat Bastid builds some great engines and he’s probably a better tuner than I am, but I can tell you right now that build and that tune won’t work for how I use my car at all.
And I get that I use my car a little differently, I’m guessing there aren’t a ton of people that have a 60 mile one way commute that goes through 3,500 ft of elevation change and put 600+ miles a month on their A-body. Or need their car to start up cold at 28°F and also hot start at 110°F, while running on 91 octane that has a significant blend change for winter/summer.
But that’s what I do, and I changed back to a 195° thermostat after running a 180° because my engine runs better at 195° on the street than it does at 180°. Not because my cooling system and fans couldn’t maintain 180°, but literally because I don’t want my car at 180° when I’m cruising down the freeway because it runs better at 195°. Maybe it doesn’t make the most power there, but it’s a **** load easier to drive.
I would totally tune it differently for a dyno run, but a dyno run is not the same as street use.
Dave_J
Well-Known Member
1984 Dodge Shelby Charger 2.2, 10.0:1 CR factory. Ran on regular but premium recommend. Shelby milled the stock blocks 0.030".
I bored it 1mm over with taller pistons for a measured 11.2:1 CR and it ran on pump 91 octane. Compression test was 215 PSI in all 4. Starter pulled a bit slow.
But the same exact build on a 1984 Dodge Rampage 2.2 and it knocked on 91 octane.
Both were 525 5 speeds FWD
Oh, both cars used a factory 2 blade electric fan on a small cross flow radiator.
I bored it 1mm over with taller pistons for a measured 11.2:1 CR and it ran on pump 91 octane. Compression test was 215 PSI in all 4. Starter pulled a bit slow.
But the same exact build on a 1984 Dodge Rampage 2.2 and it knocked on 91 octane.
Both were 525 5 speeds FWD
Oh, both cars used a factory 2 blade electric fan on a small cross flow radiator.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I never run less than pump premium. The lower grades have way more fillers and detergents and junk. It’s not worth saving ten cents to run 87 for me. And I fill up wherever I want to. Don’t need a special brand or any other voodoo.
It was 11.27:1 (measured, not a guess) and it will be 11.77:1 or maybe a bit higher (again measured, not a guess) when it goes back together. I have to see where the quench is and how far out of the block the pistons are. And that’s on IRON HEADS. I’ve been barking for DECADES that an aluminum head doesn’t “need” more compression or an iron head doesn’t “need” less compression IF you know what you are doing AND you drive like a full retard.
I don’t do cranking compression because it doesn’t matter. It’s BULLSHIT. I’ve had engines rattle at 155 and never make a sound (or any other evidence of detonation) at 210 so I don’t measure it any more. There is ZERO correlation between what an engine shows on a compression gauge and detonation resistance.
I drive my car year round, in all weather unless it’s snowing. Elevation is 1000 feet, but again who cares? It’s what the density altitude is that matters. I can go sea level or below certain times of the year. Plus, I did this when I lived a sea level. More bullshit.
My advice is for people who don’t read magazines and who want a nice running, clean burning engine that makes power on pump gas. If you think it can’t be done YOU are WRONG. And your advice is shitty.
Beginning late January I’m going to do a series on high compression pump gas builds on my YouTube page so I don’t have to deal with forum bullshit, bubble gummers, whiz bangs in gym shirts and bull headed non learners.
Ill cover EVERY aspect of how to do it so when someone wants to build an engine and not give up power because of myths, legend, nonsense, old wives tales and other such propaganda.
There will be nay sayers but they still think the earth is flat and 9.8:1 on pump gas is the max.
I’ll say it again. 200 is TOO HOT for a perf pump gas build. 180 is the MAX. Simple as that. I have a PONTIAC 400 going on the pump in early November that is just under 10:1 and that’s going to run at 180.
The owner isn’t competent to do any more than that. I built him an engine for his ability and capability. So he gets 180, and NO HOTTER.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
What carb are you running? Im betting you have a hot manifold (heat crossover) and a very limited booster. If that’s the case then yes, you NEED the heat to vaporize the fuel. I do NOT build engines with heat in the manifold. EVER. So I account for that.
Like I’ve said, there is more to it than just running the compression up. You have to have a plan and follow it. If you run a low gain booster you need the heat. I don’t do that either. If I do, then 180 is where they run.
72 blu, Post #111,
[ 1] This will be the second or third time I haver told you that the 6000+ cfm figure on a cooling website was many years ago, probably 20 or slightly more, & that that info has since been withdrawn. That is why it is no longer there.
[2] The Suzuki example was to show that despite the best efforts at fixing a problem, the cause was unable to be found. Since you imply the people involved were not smart enough to figuure it out, but you are smarter, maybe you should hop on a plane & help them out with your superior knowledge......
[3] If you read the Flex a lite website tips, they recommend a mech fan for towing, over elec fans. Since they sell both, they have nothing to gain pushing either option. A vehicle that tows is going to run hotter, which is the OPs problem, hence the same solution.
[ 1] This will be the second or third time I haver told you that the 6000+ cfm figure on a cooling website was many years ago, probably 20 or slightly more, & that that info has since been withdrawn. That is why it is no longer there.
[2] The Suzuki example was to show that despite the best efforts at fixing a problem, the cause was unable to be found. Since you imply the people involved were not smart enough to figuure it out, but you are smarter, maybe you should hop on a plane & help them out with your superior knowledge......
[3] If you read the Flex a lite website tips, they recommend a mech fan for towing, over elec fans. Since they sell both, they have nothing to gain pushing either option. A vehicle that tows is going to run hotter, which is the OPs problem, hence the same solution.
'68cuda416
Well-Known Member
Is that kinda like saying the only good electric fans are the POS Ford Contour setup that you constantly pimp? Asking for a friend.....
'68cuda416
Well-Known Member
Most guys run absolute junk 225 dollar radiators and Champion radiators falls into that category and NO high quality radiator that I have ever looked at is more than 2 cores. There are many on here and 1 in particular that I can't mention by name but Mr Ford Contour electric fans guy loves his POS 3 core Champion radiator....knowing that I can accurately come to a quick and educated conclusion.
So what's "pump premium" there? Because you can only get 91 octane here, some places you can get 93 or 94.
Hey if you don't like cranking pressure then list the dynamic compression ratio. Something that shows whether or not the cam overlap is blowing off compression.
Altitude does effect the density altitude, which is why I asked. If you live in Denver vs sea level it matters.
If you think you're going to get less BS posting stuff on YouTube, well, you must not know much about YouTube...
I get it man, my build isn't perfect. If I did it again I would do it different, but that just further illustrates why you can't say the black and white, very specific advice you're giving will work for everyone. It won't. And that's ok, I'm sure your builds are awesome, but you didn't build my engine or the vast majority of engines that people run on this board.
Holley Ultra 750 double pumper on a Edelbrock RPM Air Gap. Not a heated manifold, just the opposite.
1- yes, I saw what you said the first time. And I don't believe you, because I've always seen the Chrysler mechanical fans rated in the 4 to 5k range for CFM. Saying over and over again it's 6k+ doesn't change that
2- Neat, still not relevant
3- The OP is overheating at idle, not towing. Totally different situation. And if the electric fans put out the same CFM, it doesn't matter.
Not what I said. For a 26" radiator the Ford Contour set up works well and I suggest it because I know for a fact it works really well. A Lincoln Mark VIII fan supposedly pulls more CFM, that should fit a 26" radiator as well but the layout is a little different for clearance
For a 22" radiator the Ford Taurus fan works really well, guys have been using that one for years on all kinds of different body styles. The Chevy HHR also has a good electric fan set up that works with a 22" radiator, and there's a Mercedes that also has one that works for a 22" radiator. You can find threads will all of those fans here on FABO with a search.
You just have to make sure that you have a fan set up that can actually move enough CFM, all of those will pull 3,000 CFM or more.
Yeah, I know, you spent maximum cubic dollars on everything on your car. Congratulations. You also won't drive it more than 10 miles without putting it on a trailer, so I seriously doubt you actually know if your cooling system will be worth the money you paid for it when you're stuck in traffic when it's 110°F out.
I know, you'd never actually drive in those conditions, so we'll never know. But I've done it, so yeah, I'm super happy with my cheap *** Champion radiator and POS Ford Contour fans, even after like 35k miles. Your car will never have that many miles on it because you're too scared to drive it all the time, so we'll never know if yours is any better.
OP, if your eyes haven’t glazed over, spend less time measuring various cylinder temps, micro managing temperature across the engine etc etc. Recipe for descending into madness. Run an 8 vane water pump with a plate, if you have a 6 vane pump yank it and toss it. Gotta move the coolant! Gates and many others offer them, OEM style is all you need. Add a High flow thermostat, it’s temp is irrelevant and depending on the shroud you have if it is flat with fans mounted then cut openings on any of the larger flat area expanses to allow air to flow through vs packing up. Air-flow vs air -packing. Cut some heavy rubber flaps and screw/rivet them on the top side of any opening so at a stop they will lay flat, allowing the fans to do their job, and at speed the flaps blow open allowing airflow.
'68cuda416
Well-Known Member
LOL
Looks like the OP went off the rails with his project when he somehow decided he was going with the serpentine belt and pulley system.
It moved everything forward and now he is crammed on space, and is boxed into a corner with his overheating issue.
Should have left it a stock arrangement, they are good for added power and they keep it running cool.
Ma Mopar had it right, right from the start.
It moved everything forward and now he is crammed on space, and is boxed into a corner with his overheating issue.
Should have left it a stock arrangement, they are good for added power and they keep it running cool.
Ma Mopar had it right, right from the start.
Just to be technical and straighten something out. Cam overlap and or intake valve closing does not "blow off" compression. More overlap and or IVC event simply makes the engine "not build as much in the first place" since the intake valve is closing later than a camshaft whose IVC is somewhat earlier.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
NINETY ONE OCTANE. If your engine wants MORE heat use an annular booster.
I will shut the comments off on YouTube. Simple as that.
We have 93 here and that's what I put in Vixen.
'68cuda416
Well-Known Member
What will the name of your channel be?
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Dynamic compression ratio? Another meaningless measurement because you don’t know the VE for the calculation.
I see the problem. You build fictional ratios and I don’t.
Don't make me post all your quotes where you say you put your car on a trailer if it has to go more than 10 miles, or where you said you wouldn't drive it 60 miles one way, or that you're scared of getting it damaged. You said it, not me.
Yeah, those are Ma Mopar headers, a Ma Mopar ignition system, a Ma Mopar aluminum radiator...
That's a better way to put it, I was just using the slang
Oh whatever you have to tell yourself to make you feel better
I measured all the actual volumes for my 340 to get my static ratio. All I'm trying to get out of you is some kind of accepted reference because the cam specs make a difference for what you can get away with for a static compression ratio. Perhaps YOU can suggest a better way to compare different engines with different static compression ratios and different cam profiles? Because this isn't about an engine YOU built, it's about somebody else's.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
The only calculated measurement I care about is Effective Compression Ratio. My ECR at 1000 feet and 110% VE is 9.25, and that is easily handled by 91 octane pump gas IF you get engine temperature under control and don’t drop the car in high gear at 30 MPH and stomp the pedal to the floor. Which shouldn’t be done EVER anyway.
Dave_J
Well-Known Member
Well, power and internet is slowly getting replaced in the GREATER Tampa FL areas. SLOWLY. Water is still out in the Bartow areas.
So maybe the OP might come back on and let us know.
So maybe the OP might come back on and let us know.
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'68cuda416
Well-Known Member
Why would I want to drive it more than 10 miles? I have a work vehicle and I prefer to keep my Barracuda nice. No reason to drive it 60 miles one way....infact I wouldn't even drive my mostly stock '71 Demon 60 miles one way.....I mean for what? That's how you get rock chips and damage to very expensive grilles....now I know what your response will be and hey all I can say is i'm far happier driving my gorgeous cars around less miles but getting **** tons more praise and admiration from people that actually know what they are looking at because they are so nice and well built. Of course I get scared driving my beautiful cars around.....I have a ton of money in them to not only make it run like a scalded dog at the track but also is the envy at most car shows and have you paid attention to the illiterate bastards that congest our roads anymore.....and you can't blame me for any of it as I never had kids.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I have 3 channels. I’m thinking I will start one more just for the pump gas stuff. One will be for anything we do on the dyno. One is for other car stuff and one is the one I use for general stuff.
'68cuda416
Well-Known Member
What is the name? I have a channel of just some short videos to be honest....no tech stuff......its called Mopar are everything
See, that wasn't so hard!
Using 1,000 ft and VE at 110% the ECR for my 340 is only 8.79, but if I don't pull timing it will detonate under heavy loads. And no, not an artificial heavy load like dumping the car in high gear and going WOT, a real life load like an 8% grade under throttle
And before you jump on your high horse and tell me my build is ****, I know my build isn't perfect. And the fuel I can get here isn't great half the year. And I know from driving the car for 35k+ miles over the last 8 years or so that trying to run it at 160° on the street is a terrible idea. And that's FINE, because you didn't build my engine. And you don't drive my car when it's 110°F out either.
Props to you if your builds work like that, but they don't all work like that, so telling someone on the internet that their car should do that without having built their engine is kinda silly.
You'd have a point if you didn't keep making posts like this. If @Slappy wants to PM me, he's more than welcome and I'll happily help him pick an electric fan that will work for him without all the drama and without changing his pulley system or his entire build
See, I didn't even need to quote you. That sounds absolutely horrible.
I drive my Duster all the time because I love driving it. It gets rock chips and door dings, and while I don't like that it's not worth parking the car over. It's a car and it's meant to be driven and rock chips and door dings are just part of that. If I wanted to drive a boring *** new car all the time I would, but there's no fun in that at all.
If I get in a wreck I'll buy it back, part it out and build another one. Life goes on! That's what insurance is for, it's not worth living in fear, or being afraid to drive my own car. I make it handle and stop as best I can and use that performance to avoid accidents and drive defensively. If that runs out well there's insurance money and repairs, and make it better next time around.
As far as the rest, I couldn't care less if people praise or admire my build. I built it for me and my enjoyment! But you know what? People stop me all the time at gas stations and parking lots to talk to me about my car. But most people don't know all that much anyway, I used to get offers to buy my '72 Challenger all the time, that thing was a rusty POS but everyone wanted it. It's why I don't bother with car shows anyway, at least half the people there don't really know what they're looking at anyway. Or they only appreciate the 100% stock stuff that will get absolutely flogged by a new econo-box commuter car. Again, boring as hell. Drive it or sell it.
'68cuda416
Well-Known Member
You drive and beat on modern cars and or 4 door cars or hammered to death old muscle cars......BUT anyone that I know of would NEVER drive their nice cars year round and putting tens of thousands of miles on it or be ok with getting chips and door dings......I won't spell it out but that kinda tells me what I need to know
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