So they are true, you might want to check that. lol
Suggestions for new design Aluminum Mopar SB clean slate (kind of) cylinder heads
- Thread starter Johnny Mac
- Start date
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Look at the oiling system diagram for a Gen3 Hemi. It's self explanatory.I think he doesn't like it because it isn't driven off a distributor.
Well yes, yes it isI think he doesn't like it because it isn't driven off a distributor.
DionR
Well-Known Member
You forget that after this "perfect" cylinder head is brought to market most of the people who made those suggestions will follow up with "it's too expensive" and never buy it. What good is an offset rocker cylinder head if it costs 50% more than everything else on the market and they sell 10 sets over 5 years? Great business model there.
If BP can "buy" each cylinder head for less than the current cylinder head they use on the Magnum based crate motors, and can use a less expensive (but still quality) valve train, they can offer their motors for less money. That's a win for the Mopar crowd in my book.
Is the TF head an offset rocker head? Do SB Chevy heads run offset rockers? LS?
That will be their one saving grace is the price point. If they can compete, they might have something. Any aftermarket head is too expensive for me. Especially since no one makes anything for the slant 6. Why are you arguing offset rockers? Where'd that come from? You know the Trick Flows aren't offset. An offset rocker head like the W2 would be fantastic, but the big drawback there is spending what the heads cost on the valve train. The thing is, 99% of people will never use what those heads are capable of, so there's no point in all that cash outlay. Really, what we're getting with the Blueprint heads is basically "the same thing" BUT IMO that's not a bad thing, because it's more competition and that usually lowers prices. If Blueprint is having small block heads cast....whoever is casting them, maybe they will start doing some blocks, too. They already cast their own Chevy and Ford blocks.
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Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Where does the oil go under acceleration?
How long is the pick up tube?
What diameter is the pick up tube?
What baffles can be used to control oil in the pan with a front mounted pump and a center or front sump pan?
They put the pump up front because it’s cheaper to do.
The oil goes to the rear on acceleration. Now you have to baffle the pan to stop oil from climbing out of the sump and onto the rear of the pan where the oil gets its *** whipped into a bubbly mess by the crank, rather than being able to baffle the pan to keep oil around the pick up.
If you have a front mounted pump and a center sump pan the pick up is far longer than it would be and should be if the pump was in the rear.
The longer the tube the bigger the diameter the tube needs to be. At some point you just can’t get the tube diameter any bigger and the suction side of the pump suffers, and the suction side is where time should be spent on an oiling system. Not on a bunch of “I do this work on the pressure side of the pump because it makes me feel better” stuff.
Also when the pump is in an aluminum cover the expansion rate of aluminum is greater than cast iron so the pump becomes less efficient as the engine gets hotter.
It’s not magic or trick to put the pump
up front. For daily driven street stuff it doesn’t matter.
When you want to make power stuff like that matters.
Yea a low deck big block , there is more of a demand
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
I think he doesn't like it because it isn't driven off a distributor.
Wrong much? Why not explain to everyone why a front mounted oil pump is a good thing.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
The TF head is not a performance head. It’s a STREET head.
The LS uses different architecture than the Chrysler.
It’s like some guys think that GM **** doesn’t use offset rockers. They do. And those guys don’t ***** about it like the Chrysler guys do.
Again, I couldn’t care less if the “market” released 10 different castings that all use OEM architecture because that’s all street stuff.
BPE is making castings for THEMSELVES, to fit their stuff. If they sell the heads as a stand alone product good for them.
But it’s not some revolutionary, I have to mortgage the house to buy a set of theses heads type of deal.
Sales on the TF190s seem to be pretty good. Being a profitable business, I'm sure that BPE has to look at many things to bring something to market. What are the net profits on the investment is going to factor in hugely.
I'm certain they know how to build a high performing head. The question is, are clients willing to pay for the system, at a price point that ensures profitability for BPE?
Personally I'd love to see an enlarged port (i.e. dedicated raised port intake or porting required on the stock opening intake). Offset rockers? That seems to be a big time cost driver and would probably limit the customer base. I'd love to have it but it seems an expensive proposition is all.
Another big deal is having a head with a chamber that is actually modern.
I'm certain they know how to build a high performing head. The question is, are clients willing to pay for the system, at a price point that ensures profitability for BPE?
Personally I'd love to see an enlarged port (i.e. dedicated raised port intake or porting required on the stock opening intake). Offset rockers? That seems to be a big time cost driver and would probably limit the customer base. I'd love to have it but it seems an expensive proposition is all.
Another big deal is having a head with a chamber that is actually modern.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Not sure I understand what you are saying.
BPE making the heads for themselves. They are making them for the public. Guys like me.
In fact, Rod I believe is in the middle of a Gen 3 build to put in a project car he is working on, has nothing to do with the heads he sells.
The BPE heads are for someone who wants the best performance available in a non offset head, by a significant amount.
They aren’t for everybody, many would be perfectly happy with a trick flow head or some other choice.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
the BPE head is 200 cc. The intake ports are raised..a bunch
With my ported Victor intake there is barely suitable meat, a super Victor would be a better choice actually.
I see what you mean, yeah I really don't need to worry about any of that with external lines and swinging pick up tube, windage tray and baffled pan.
I guess I wasn't thinking about stock stuff, who does that lol ???
We never see g3 or LS bearing failures here at the shop
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I don't. lol
It's like I said. All you have to do is look at the diagram of the piss poor Gen3 oiling system. The oil has to flow a dang LONG way before it gets to the crankshaft. Gotta be hell on parts during cold starts. Plus, the pickup it TINY. It must work though, because there are lots of them runnin around with stupid high mileage. I think that's a testament to the oil though and "not so much" the oiling system. But what the heck do I know?
DionR
Well-Known Member
I was actually poking you about not liking them because you don't like EFI. It was even meant to be light hearted.
Why does that matter? It's not like the pump has an open pickup that only sucks oil when the oil sloshes over it. A dry sump pump generally isn't even in the pan, does that make it worse than both?
Ah, unless you are talking about the pump has to overcome the inertia of the oil trying to move backwards. Yeah, big blocks don't have to do that either do they. Don't forget that when that sudden rush of acceleration happens, the motor is running and the oil is already moving forward at a rate that probably doesn't care. And if that was a problem, then the rear mount pump has to overcome it when it pushes the oil forward as well. Really doubt it is an issue.
The G3 in the cars are front sump so the pickup is very short. Really doubt there is much difference in length between the pickup for an LA A-Body and a mid sump G3 swap pan.
A baffle is a baffle, why does the pump location matter?
The front mount pumps in no way affect the ability to baffle the pan. My Holley swap pan comes with a baffle and Milodon makes a baffled road race pan for G3 swaps. How big do you think the front mount oil pump is that you think it means the pan can't be baffled?
The pump might be under an aluminum TC cover, but it is bolted to the cast iron block. Even if it weren't, I don't see how the pump becomes less efficient since they aren't aluminum so they don't expand any more than cast iron pump in an LA.
Comparing a front mount pump to a rear mount LA pump, I only think of a couple of differences between the 2.
1. Rear mount is probably taller, but smaller in overall diameter.
2. Rear mount is shaft driven and has a efficiency loss due to the gear mess on the distributor
3. Front mount reduces complexity due to no distributor to drive the shaft.
4. Front mount doesn't induce any flex in the cam shaft.
None of these probably make a hill of beans in power difference. But if they do, seems to me not having a gear to drive and an oil pump to add load to twist the cam would be the only ones that could even possibly be measurable.
PRH
Well-Known Member
People are mixing up the two “BPE” heads.
I don't agree but see what he means
I like to see BPE heads give a 30-50 hp over trick flow (similar build) at the same price point to me that would be a step up for the mopar world. If they only make about same that's ok but they better be cheaper. If less there's little point of them other than for their create engines.
To me that's the problem with edelbrock's isn't necessarily the hp they make but the cost per hp, to me the two main choices for street heads are SM decent power at decent price or TF good power but gonna cost you a bit but still pretty reasonable.
Probably hard to compete with SM cause of price, edelbrock so easy to beat so TF would be the main competition so need some kind of performance and or price (preferably both) advantage over TF.
To me that's the problem with edelbrock's isn't necessarily the hp they make but the cost per hp, to me the two main choices for street heads are SM decent power at decent price or TF good power but gonna cost you a bit but still pretty reasonable.
Probably hard to compete with SM cause of price, edelbrock so easy to beat so TF would be the main competition so need some kind of performance and or price (preferably both) advantage over TF.
That's awesome! I didn't realize. Are these already released?
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
I have no idea what you are even talking about.
My point is we already have enough choices for heads that use OEM parts.
Another company making a head using that architecture doesn’t move the needle for me.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
I was actually poking you about not liking them because you don't like EFI. It was even meant to be light hearted.
Why does that matter? It's not like the pump has an open pickup that only sucks oil when the oil sloshes over it. A dry sump pump generally isn't even in the pan, does that make it worse than both?
Ah, unless you are talking about the pump has to overcome the inertia of the oil trying to move backwards. Yeah, big blocks don't have to do that either do they. Don't forget that when that sudden rush of acceleration happens, the motor is running and the oil is already moving forward at a rate that probably doesn't care. And if that was a problem, then the rear mount pump has to overcome it when it pushes the oil forward as well. Really doubt it is an issue.
The G3 in the cars are front sump so the pickup is very short. Really doubt there is much difference in length between the pickup for an LA A-Body and a mid sump G3 swap pan.
A baffle is a baffle, why does the pump location matter?
The front mount pumps in no way affect the ability to baffle the pan. My Holley swap pan comes with a baffle and Milodon makes a baffled road race pan for G3 swaps. How big do you think the front mount oil pump is that you think it means the pan can't be baffled?
The pump might be under an aluminum TC cover, but it is bolted to the cast iron block. Even if it weren't, I don't see how the pump becomes less efficient since they aren't aluminum so they don't expand any more than cast iron pump in an LA.
Comparing a front mount pump to a rear mount LA pump, I only think of a couple of differences between the 2.
1. Rear mount is probably taller, but smaller in overall diameter.
2. Rear mount is shaft driven and has a efficiency loss due to the gear mess on the distributor
3. Front mount reduces complexity due to no distributor to drive the shaft.
4. Front mount doesn't induce any flex in the cam shaft.
None of these probably make a hill of beans in power difference. But if they do, seems to me not having a gear to drive and an oil pump to add load to twist the cam would be the only ones that could even possibly be measurable.
Ok. I’d continue this conversation but I really don’t feel like going back and forth with a guy who claims I don’t like EFI.
You don’t have a clue what I like or don’t like.
As for the pump, mount it wherever you want.
He's not talking Blueprint engines, some others guy's ported heads.
It'll move the needle if they can get them at a competitive price point. More competition always brings prices down.
What might that be, I see some seedblaster heads that PBR did going for $2500 in the parts sale section.
It seems $2500 bucks is the going rate for something that competes with a Trick Flow cylinder head
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