Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

[Treblig]

Well finally some progress. Here are some pics of the SysKoKit (Shift kit,SK200-4R-B) used on my 2004R and the Transgo non lock up kit and the Gil Younger Reverse fix. The guys at TransPartsWarehouse checked off everything they did (on this work sheet) as they overhauled the 2004R. Then they put it on their half million dollar dyno and tested it to make sure everything worked properly. I really like the fact that they have already ran the tranny (under load) to ensure everything works properly, all the pressures are correct and that it shift as advertised. I should be able to pick the tranny up in a few days. Too many mods to list but you can see in the pics all the things they did. Will list all the new parts installed in a few days.

PS - I'm running out of excuses and will soon install the 2004R in my '69 'Cuda.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here's the parts list and some of the pricing. I was shooting for around $650 for the 2004R overhaul. Ended up spending close to $900. But that's not too bad considering they bought the shift kit with all the valve body and servo springs and other items to make all the modifications I wanted. Modified valve bodies cost $300-400 by themselves!! It also included the hardened shell and hardened stator support, drilling the 1/4" hole in the front pump for better oil return, new pump assy w/10 vane pump, all new Torrington bearings, high pref. band, all new bushings, high perf. TV and Rev boost valves and a number of other modifications. If you look at my previous post you can go through all the mods that were checked off in the shift kit instruction sheet. To put icing on the cake, they also ran the tranny on their dyno to guarantee that everything works properly and all pressures were correct. For the dyno test they used the non locking torque converter that I will use in the tranny. It comes with a THREE YEAR warranty. You can't beat that!!!!!!!

$481 Adapter
$900 Transmission (with warranty)
$19 speedo cable
Few other odds and ends


It will probably end up costing me around $1700 when it's all said and done.

It's still a lot cheaper than 3K for the Gearvendor. The best part of all is the fact that if I have a problem with the tranny I don't have to pull it and ship it off to another state to get checked. Minimal down time if something goes wrong. This is important for me as my Barracuda is a daily driver.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

And finally pics of the new 2004R transmission. It won't be long now!!!!! I should be able to install this tranny in the next few weeks. I have a friend who has a large garage at his house with a car lift that will make it easy to replace. He's out of town right now but will be back in a week or so. After I make sure the tranny works good and shifts correctly and I get the driveshaft made I'll have the 4:10 gears installed in the rear, it will then be tire smoking time!!!!!!!:burnout:


treblig

 

[jbc426]

I'm about to do a swap to the 200R4 too. Not using the Wilcap kit and going with a lock-up converter though.

Great write up, thanks! Where did you get the speedometer cable extension and ratio adapter? I didn't see that info in the post.

 

[Treblig]

Speedometer extension from ebay:

[ame="http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPEEDOMETER-CABLE-EXTENSION-20-BUICK-OLDS-PONTIAC-CADILLAC-/230993755072?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c84cfbc0&vxp=mtr"]Speedometer Cable Extension 20" Buick Olds Pontiac Cadillac | eBay[/ame]


What car are you putting the 2004R into??
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

There are many speed adapters on ebay also. This one from PATCTRANS is one example, patctrans has many different ratios. The best part about these is that you can us them on GM or Mopar trannys. If you're having trouble finding the right drive gear you can just stick one of these on the tranny and your problem is fixed. You have to get the correct one of course??


http://www.ebay.com/itm/130470750901?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Treblig

 

[Woods74]

LOL @ 9 pages, didn't even rebuild the trans yourself. My 3 year full resto only got 5, you must be doing something right.

 

[Treblig]

LOL @ 9 pages, didn't even rebuild the trans yourself. My 3 year full resto only got 5, you must be doing something right.

PiosonDart74, The reason for all the pages is that I'm doing my best to document (show other members) everything involved with putting a 2004R into an auto console '69 Barracuda. I could have put much less information here but then it wouldn't help nearly as much. Plus there were quite a few member questions along the way. The members at FABO have helped me so much I was just trying to repay them by giving every detail. Anyone who doesn't plan to put a 2004R into their car might find this thread boring but after some see that it is possible and they know all the problems ahead of time then it might encourage some to go through with it!! The main reason I'm trying this is because of "Mopar to ya" and his thread on this subject. If it hadn't been for him blazing the trail I would not have tried it!!!! Pay Forward>>>>>>>

Treblig

 

[Woods74]

Excellent, your gonna have a blast driving that thing everywhere!

 

[jbc426]

What car are you putting the 2004R into??
Treblig

It's going in the 68 Barracuda convertible in my sig. Thanks for the links.

 

[Treblig]

No problem jbc426, good luck and I hope my posts have helped. If you need any additional info with the tranny swap don't hesitate to ask. I should be installing the tranny in the next few weeks.....CAN'T WAIT>.


PS- remember to double check the gap between the torque converter and the flex plate, supposed to be no more than 3/16" (if I remember correctly). If the gap is too big you'll accidently disengage the converter from the front pump in the tranny. But you can lurk around the Chevy websites to get that info also.
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

After thinking about the 2004R swap I didn't want to use the GM trans cooler lines then downsize to the mopar fittings, The mopar fittings are 1/8" pipe in the transmission and in the radiator. To make things worse the mopar fittings have a much smaller opening than the GM fittings/line. Here you see the Mopar trans/radiator fittings: First Pic....


Then we have the GM tranny fitting...second pic


You can not adapt the GM fitting to the Mopar fitting unless you use about 3 or 4 adapters which makes the cooler lines look bulky and awkward. I went to a specialty shop that sells every type of fitting and adapter and they still had to use three additional adapters to make it work. So I got mad and decided to cheat!!! I am a machinist and after thinking about it for a while I checked the size of a 1/8" pipe tap drill. Then I checked the size of the other end of the GM fitting. I came to the conclusion that I could drill and tap one end of the GM fitting to make it connect to the 1/8" pipe fitting. The male to male 1/8" pipe ID is almost as large as the GM tranny line where the Mopar 1/8" pipe fitting is much smaller (don't ask me why??) see pic Number 3, Mopar on right. The 2004r requires more fluid transfer to keep the fluid cool so I didn't want to restrict the flow with the smaller Mopar fittings/line. I used my 1/8" pipe tap to make threads inside the GM fitting (pics 4 and 5). After I threaded the GM fitting and screwed and tightened the 1/8" pipe (male to male) into the Gm fitting (pics 6 and 7), I took them to my radiator man and had him silver solder the connection to guarantee they would never leak. It only cost 10 bucks to make the special fitting. Now all I need to do is screw the 1/8" pipe into my Mopar radiator and attach the GM line (second to last pic) This same GM line screws directly into the GM tranny fitting which offers a larger 5/16" line (pic 9) and more flow to keep your tranny cool.
I had struggled with this problem for a long time because I didn't want to use all the adapters to make it work and still have the restrictive Mopar fittings in the lines. I also didn't want all those bulky adapters sticking all over the place. This way it makes it simple, I screw my adapter into the radiator and use the GM lines from the tranny to the radiator, then to the trans cooler, then back to the tranny. More flow, cooler trans fluid and cleaner install!!!!

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

And here's what these home made fittings look like after they've been cleaned up. Both picks show the larger GM tranny line installed. The small end is the 1/8" pipe fitting that screws into a 904 and into my '69 Barracuda radiator. For some reason the original Mopar fittings (1/8" pipe) had very small through holes which restrict flow. The male to male 1/8" pipe fittings I bought have much larger through holes (about 15 percent larger)...that's a lot when it comes to tranny oil flow. And I'm seriously thinking about increasing the 1/8" pipe through hole to the full size of the 5/16 GM trans lines (.252" ID). I would only have to enlarge the hole .015" more which should not effect the strength of the fitting but it would give me another 15-18 percent increase in flow. I know, I know...too many details, but who would have known the that Mopar fittings were so restrictive to flow???

For all you members who install larger tranny lines and trans coolers to help the tranny stay cool are working against the laws of physics if you don't install 1/8" pipe fittings with larger through holes. No matter how large your tranny lines are the front pump still has to force all the fluid through a tiny hole in the 1/8" fitting (.220") at the transmission and at the radiator. The technical term for the stock fitting is known as a "restriction".

treblig

 

[jbc426]

And here's what these home made fittings look like after they've been cleaned up. Both picks show the larger GM tranny line installed. The small end is the 1/8" pipe fitting that screws into a 904 and into my '69 Barracuda radiator. For some reason the original Mopar fittings (1/8" pipe) had very small through holes which restrict flow. The male to male 1/8" pipe fittings I bought have much larger through holes (about 15 percent larger)...that's a lot when it comes to tranny oil flow. And I'm seriously thinking about increasing the 1/8" pipe through hole to the full size of the 5/16 GM trans lines (.252" ID). I would only have to enlarge the hole .015" more which should not effect the strength of the fitting but it would give me another 15-18 percent increase in flow. I know, I know...too many details, but who would have known the that Mopar fittings were so restrictive to flow???

For all you members who install larger tranny lines and trans coolers to help the tranny stay cool are working against the laws of physics if you don't install 1/8" pipe fittings with larger through holes. No matter how large your tranny lines are the front pump still has to force all the fluid through a tiny hole in the 1/8" fitting (.220") at the transmission and at the radiator. The technical term for the stock fitting is known as a "restriction".

treblig

This was a thought provoking addition to what is an incredible documentary. However, it dawned on me today to take my radiator down to a local shop and have the lower tank removed and have the Chevy fittings and inner cooling tube swapped in. That way I can run Chevy sized lines up to, and through my radiator, before it goes to the tranny cooler.

PS if it were not for Spring Fling down in LA next week, I would post some pics of the Reid bell housing, 318 neutral balanced ring gear and custom torque converter on here. ( This eliminates the need for the Wilcat adaptors, and for good reason) The Hughes transforming 408 stroker kit, cam and well massaged Eddie heads and engine parts are due in tomorrow. The transmission has still not been assigned or been committed to a certain delivery date, but the man building it is of stout reputation. I trust his product shines in the same light.

More to follow...

 

[Treblig]

This was a thought provoking addition to what is an incredible documentary. However, it dawned on me today to take my radiator down to a local shop and have the lower tank removed and have the Chevy fittings and inner cooling tube swapped in. That way I can run Chevy sized lines up to, and through my radiator, before it goes to the tranny cooler.

PS if it were not for Spring Fling down in LA next week, I would post some pics of the Reid bell housing, 318 neutral balanced ring gear and custom torque converter on here. ( This eliminates the need for the Wilcat adaptors, and for good reason) The Hughes transforming 408 stroker kit, cam and well massaged Eddie heads and engine parts are due in tomorrow. The transmission has still not been assigned or been committed to a certain delivery date, but the man building it is of stout reputation. I trust his product shines in the same light.

More to follow...

JBC, Good luck on your build!! You have a very good idea about the tranny fittings and I had seriously considered doing just that. In my case, I'm doing the tranny swap in a friends garage and don't want to take up the space any longer than necessary. Also my car is a daily driver so I would hate to take it apart and have "down" while I had the radiator fixed. Third, I plan to replace the old radiator with an aluminum one later this year so it would be a waste of money to do my current radiator. Otherwise, for those folks building up from scratch it is a PERFECT solution to the tranny cooling line fitting problem. You should have started a thread to document your tranny swap. I don't mind at all if you add your work to this thread since it would give other members a place to go to see two different ways to "skin the cat"!!!!!!


We need to see some pics, the more the better. That way you get more questions and ideas thrown at you!!!
Treblig

 

[magnumdust]

Is that trans just a stock rebuild or is it beefed up?

 

[Treblig]

Is that trans just a stock rebuild or is it beefed up?

Not sure if you're asking me or JBC426. If you're asking me then the answer is that my transmission was modified as per my instructions to the transmission shop. Valve body mods, oiling mods, servo mods, numerous HD/hardened parts, non lock up conversion valve, 10 (hardened) vane pump with new pump body, etc, etc. I bought a shift kit that detailed numerous modifications to make the transmission to hold up under heavy duty use. NOT A RACE TRANSMISSION, just a healthy street tranny that can handle more torque and HP than a standard 2004R. I told the trans mechanic that I want the trans to shift firm NOT HARD.
I still haven't had the chance to install the trans even though I have everything I need to make the change. The torque converter is a non lock for a very good reason....both the 2004R and the 700R4 use the factory lock up torque converter that "kicks in" after the tranny is in forth gear. Unfortunately the method used to lock up the torque converter is hydraulic. In other words when the torque converter locks up it steals hydraulic pressure from the system which robs pressure from the forth gear lock up pressure. In these overdrive transmissions forth gear is usually the first thing that fails. Once forth gear clutches begin to fail they flood the tranny with trash (metal/fibers). It all down hill after that !!!! One reason for forth gear failure that it is the weakest gear and the other reason is the fact that the converter steals pressure from the system to engage the converter lock up. By using a non lock up converter you take away one factor which causes forth gear to fail and increases the likelihood of a long lived transmission. BOY!!!! That was a mouthful!!
PS - If you decide to use a non lock up converter be sure to also use the biggest trans oil cooler you can get in your grill. Non lock converters produce more heat (the higher the stall the more heat you get). This is one reason I didn't want a high stall non lock up converter for street use. It's really not that big a deal since cars ran with no lock up converter for many years with the standard radiator trans cooler and they lasted many, many miles before failure. But if you have a strong motor and a non lock up converter it doesn't hurt to have a little insurance (Big trans cooler) in addition to the radiator cooler!!
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Update!! I should be able to attempt the swap over next week!! Also I happen to be parting out another FB Barracuda and I'm in the process of cutting out and selling the auto tunnel. It gives me a perfect chance to take the cut tunnel and linkage and show everyone about the interference problem between the torque rod and the 2004R housing ( I wrote about this problem months ago). Here I have some pics of the chopped up tunnel on the 2004R with pics of the factory linkage as it hits the tranny housing. You can see the normal torque rod in the tunnel when there's nothing in the way (first pic), then when I put the tunnel over the 2004R you can see how the torque rod is no longer vertical (plumb). The 2004R housing is fatter where the torque rod normally sits. You can see the torque rod pushed out to the driver's side. This is exactly what I had been thinking would happen, now I can actually see it!!!. My plan all along was to cut the torque rod so that only about 3-4 inches hangs below the rubber boot. Then attach a new bell crank lever to the end of the short torque rod (see pics). I used a 1/2 rod to depict the short torque rod and attached my new bell crank to the 1/2" rod. Once I have the 904 out I can cut the torque rod attach another 1/2" rod end just below the boot and weld on my new bell crank lever. I still need to put the last bend in the new bell crank so that it has the same amount of throw as the factory bell crank, I'm also using a heavier piece of flat stock to compensate for the extra length. Since I'm going to be welding upside down and under the car tunnel when I install the new bell crank lever I plan to drill a hole larger than 1/2" in the top end of the bell crank and weld in (on the bench) a short piece of hollow tube (1/8" wall thickness"). This 1" long piece of tube (with 1/2 ID) will make it much easier to weld the new bell crank (lever) to the short torque rod. You wouldn't want the new torque shaft to break free of the bell crank lever....that would be bad. The factory welded the bell crank lever to the torque rod on the bench (out of the car), making easy to get a good solid weld between the two parts. I'm going to be in a very small space and need an easy way to make sure the two parts are solidly welded together. There will be pics of all this in case anyone is confused about my pans.

I don't see any problem with interference if I do it right. Has anyone else tried this???

QUESTIONS????

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about when it comes to welding a new bell crank lever to the factory torque rod. I found a short piece of hollow tube 1/2" ID and drilled a hole in the upper part of the new bell crank lever. The factory torque rod is 1/2" OD so this tube slides over the torque rod (snug fit). I drilled a hole in the lever just big enough for the tube to fit snug and welded it in place. Now when I install the new lever on factory torque rod I can weld it easily on the upper and lower edge of the tube. The factory welded the original lever in the spot where it says "Not here", that would be fine if it was on the bench unfortunately I'm in a tunnel under a car and to get a good weld in that area would be more difficult than welding a tube to the torque rod. I don't want the new lever to separate from the torque rod any time in the future so I want a very solid weld all the way around the ends of the tube. The piece of 1/2" shaft you see in the pic represents the torque rod in my barracuda.

PS - Yes, that is a "split" spacer/sleeve out a shock absorber!!! It worked perfectly!!

treblig

 

[Treblig]

Well the day has finally arrived. Starting tomorrow I will put the Barracuda on the lift and start removing the 904 tranny. I would have liked to have done it weeks ago but the friend who has the lift promised that if I helped him finish his 1940 Hot Rod he would help me with the tranny and let me use his shop. We all but finished his hot rod so now I get to replace my tranny.

I'm not writing to update everyone about the tranny swap....I'm writing to let you know about something I discovered as I was replacing my speedometer last week. My speedo has been bouncing (below 40 MPH) ever since I bought the Cuda many years ago. It has been a thorn in my side and I've wanted to fix it for a long time. I bought a used factory 140 MPH speedo and had it refurbished. I also had a leak in my AC/heater control vacuum assy. So I finally pulled the instrument panel and replaced the speedo and the AC control assy. And yes I had already removed the cable and lubricated it but it didn't help at all. Anyway, as I was putting in the new speedo on the bench I noticed that the speedo cable connection on the 140 MPH speedo was different than mine. I had to do a little research on this problem because there was no way my push on cable was going to screw onto the new speedo. I have an all original '69 Barracuda and it comes with the push on clip type speedo cable. I've known this fact for some time (from when I lubed the cable) but when I bought the new speedo I never even looked at the back side because I thought all Barracuda (67, 68,69) speedos were the same. Unfortunately I had my instrument panel out and was committed. I put the new speedo into the panel and put the panel back in the car and went home for the day. When I got home I did some research....as it turns out the Barracuda speedos prior to '69 had the screw on type cable connection. I found out that the speedo cable connection on the back of the 67 and 68 speedos is the exactly the same as many other cars (Ford, Chevy, etc) 5/8"-18 thds. If you remember what I wrote about the tranny cable connection (months ago) you'll know that the Mopar and Chevy (and many other cars) have a similar connection on the tranny end of the cable. So...all I had to do to make my new speedo work was a standard Chevy, Ford, Mopar cable of the correct length. I went to O'reillys and asked them what different length cables they had for Chevys and they gave me a long list. I selected the 83" cable because when I install the 2004R I'll need a longer cable to reach the tranny connection (behind the trans cross member). It only cost $12 and they had it in stock!!! For anyone who does this tranny swap remember, if you have a clip on speedo you'll either need to get a longer clip on Mopar cable or get a cable extension (like I had already done). If you have a screw on type speedo you can use the standard Chevy, Ford, Mopar Cable in whatever length you need.
My speedo works perfect now and my AC/ heater assy no longer leaks any vacuum.........Getting closer to the perfect car!!!!! Can't wait to see how much the 2004R helps performance and gas mileage ESPECIALLY with the 4:10 gears!!!


Treblig

 

[Treblig]

It took about 3 hrs but I managed to remove the tranny. Didn't know about the one bolt above the starter that comes in from the front. Couldn't figure out why I couldn't separate the tranny from the block!!!

Tomorrow I cut off the torque shaft and weld my new torque shaft in place (see previous pics). I'll weld in the 1/8 plates between the tranny cross member and the trans tunnel for reinforcement, Will show pics tomorrow. Then I'll trim the trans cross member to clear the 2004R tranny housing and maybe install the lower rod end (if there's room). I'll install the TCI crank spacer/adapter and then put the new flex plate onto the crank adapter. Next will come the adapter plate on the back of the motor. Looks like I'll have to massage ( hammer and bend) the sheet metal lip (where the forward part of the trans tunnel meets the firewall). I ran into a lot of trouble getting to the upper bolts because the lip gets in the way of the socket/extension and since the TCI adapter is 1/4" thick I will have even less room for wrenches and sockets between the trans bolts and the firewall/ trans tunnel. I'll have to rent a transmission jack because we had a lot of trouble removing the tranny on the rack, mostly because of the 2 1/2" exhaust. For those who have never removed a Mopar tranny on a car lift, you'll need to remove the starter to remove the trans inspection plate so you can get to the torque converter bolts. And don't forget the pivot shaft that sticks out of the tranny just below the driver's right foot. I hadn't ever removed a tranny from a Mopar and didn't realize that the pivot shaft (for the carb/trans linkage) sticks out about 3 1/2" which made it impossible to get the tranny past the exhaust pipes. As it turns out I had to also remove the brace that connects the motor to the bell housing to get the starter all the way out. When they installed the 2 1/2" exhaust they made it almost impossible for me to drop the tranny. The tranny bell housing wouldn't quite fit between the pipes, but with a little work and a lot of prying I got it out. My pipes have a cross tube so you can't spread them and I didn't want to unbolt them off the manifolds.

PS - It's a real shame that I'm removing a very low mileage (2500 miles) 904. This tranny shifted so good and worked perfectly. Hopefully I can find it a new home for it since I'll also have all the shift linkage (from tranny to carb) in tact. I'll keep it for a few weeks just to make sure the 2004R is happy in the Barracuda.

MORE TOMORROW!!!!
Treblig

 

[Woods74]

Hey, when your done give a shout out and let us know how that PNH converter works out!!!

 

[Treblig]

Hey, when your done give a shout out and let us know how that PNH converter works out!!!

Absolutely!!! Will give all details of how the tranny shifts, launches and cruises. I only have 3:08s in the rear end but I have a brand new set of 4:10s in the box ready to install. I wanted to make sure the tranny works as it's supposed to before changing the gears. If I hear any strange noises I don't want to be wondering if it's the tranny or the new gears....one problem at a time!!

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

I got more done today. Mostly fabrication, which always sucks up a lot of time. I installed and welded the 1/8" plates into the gap between the trans upper cross member and the trans tunnel. I've tore down a 67 auto console shift Barracuda and now my '69 auto floor shift Cuda. Both of these cars had a gap (1/8" to 3/16") between the upper cross member and the tunnel. You can just barely see the gap in the pics but once the 1/8" place is tapped in with a small hammer the gap is obvious. I did have to put a slight bend in some of the plates so they would conform to the tunnel and the cross member making it easier to weld. I went slow, weld a little then using a wet/damp towel I would cool off the area so the heat wouldn't get transferred to my carpet inside the car. It took longer than normal because I couldn't make a continuous weld along the seam like I normally would. Once all the plates were welded in place the cross member had enough bracing to start cutting out the section to make room for the 2004R.
I'm maxed on the number of pics I can post so I'll make another post later showing the rest of the work I accomplished today.

treblig

 

[Woods74]

^ What's that for? Just because? Going nutso? Yay! Get some paint in there with a nozzle or wand. Rustoleum BBQ with a cut-off tip and a wd40 smart wand gets r done!