Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

[Treblig]

Latest pics of the trans line install. They are just roughed in, still need a little adjustment/tweeking and also I need to tie them down so they don't rattle. Still need one short piece to complete the last line.
Also some better pics of the finished shifter linkage. In the last pic you can see the dog leg I had to put in the rod to make it run parallel to the ground.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Few extra pics. I quit!!!! Until Monday, I should be able to finish the trans lines, connect them to the HD cooler. Then raise the trans 1/8" or so because I realized that if it's even one degree lower than stock the exhaust pipes won't mate perfectly with the manifolds. I mean it's pretty close right now but another 1/8" would make it perfect. All it takes is a simple spacer between the trans mount bracket and the rubber mount or a spacer between the rubber mount and the trans mount pad. Dips stick tube, trans inspection cover, put a dent in the driver's down pipe for the starter, bolt up the converter, check for driveshaft length and maybe drink a BEER!!!! I deserve it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Treblig

 

[Treblig]

here's what I plan to get for the narrow passage that passes between the starter and the torsion bar. I haven't decided if I'm going to go with the oval to round transition piece of the oval on both ends. Once I put that big dent in the down pipe to get the starter installed I'll be ordering the oval piece to take it's place!!
These short piece 18" long only cost $25-$69 depending on which you buy. They come in straight, 45 and 90 oval and oval to round transition. I can't believe more Mopar freaks don't use these oval pipes in these tight places???

treblig

 

[Mopar to ya]

My TTi headers sit above the centerlink. They are high and no tight places anywhere, except under the crossmember. After i went to full 3" exhaust, I still had 5 1/2" of clearance under the exhaust.

 

[Treblig]

Yes mine also runs above the center link but between the larger starting gear ring and TCI setting the starter further toward the driver's side it took what little space I had. I guess it's a blessing is disguise because after looking at it more closely I found that the center link joints have been hitting the bottom side if the pipe NOT GOOD!! I thought I could hear a strange clunk when I made a hard left and hit a bump at the same time. I'll just fix all the problems in that area at one time because the people who put the exhaust into the car also had the down pipe up against the torsion bar on the driver's side ALSO BAD!! So for now there are some dents in the down pipe and I have ordered the oval tubing so I can replace that section of pipe next week.
Today I raised the tail of the tranny up a 1/4", now it's sitting nice. NO way the dip stick tube is going to fit unless I bend it a lot so I just ordered a 2004R flexible dip stick tube. Bought 8 quarts of synthetic trans fluid and finished bending and fitting the lines to the tranny. Double checked the torque on all the bolts. Spent the rest of the time heating and hammering, cooling, fitting..... heating and hammering, cooling and fitting the down pipe to clear the torsion bar, starter and center link. Starter is now installed!!! Exhaust is hooked up on the driver's side!!! Tomorrow....drive shaft length, get extra long torque converter bolts (stock ones won't work with the TCI 1/4" bushing that goes between the flex plate and the converter), Fit and re-weld passenger's side exhaust back in place, lower car and get the two top nuts on the two top studs, reconnect the coil, fill with fluid, blaa, blaa, blaa.

treblig

 

[Treblig]

Today I got the transmission lines buckled down good and the starter completely hooked up. Also got the speedo cable routed through the frame and it came out very nice (84" cable is what works perfect). But if you have a '69 speedo you'll have to buy a speedometer cable extension unless you get one custom made because of the clip on connector on the newer speedometers. Tried to get some good pics of the starter/exhaust area so you can see how close everything came out.. It should be more roomy after I install the oval exhaust pipe. As it turns out the tranny yoke (2004R) is badly pitted so I'll have to order a new one before I can put the car on the ground. But otherwise everything is looking good!!!!! Besides I'm still waiting for the flex dip stick tube to be delivered......

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

No pics today. Spent the day bolting up the torque converter. NOTE: If you try this swap be sure and get the extra long, GRADE 8 METRIC bolts that go into the converter. TCI required that you use some spacers between the flex plate and the converter making the stock bolt unusable...and don't forget the lock tight!!. Had to run to the screw and bolt store to get what I needed. Modified and installed the 2004R inspection pan. I had fabricated one months ago (see old posts) but since I had to cut off another portion of the 2004R housing,to clear my passenger exhaust, I had to redesign it a little so it would fit. Then I modified the 318 front cover (front of trans bell) so it would still function to keep rocks/junk from getting into the converter/flex plate area. I also trimmed off the lower portion of the TCI adapter plate because it was hanging down below the trans pan. I had left it a little long on the bottom not knowing if I would need material for some other purpose. Will have pics tomorrow of all I did today. Also dropped off the driveshaft at the driveshaft shop (52 3/36" measuring from C to C on the U-joints). Re-installed the passenger's side exhaust pipe and re-welded.
All that's left is to install the flex dip stick tube (should be delivered tomorrow), install the D/S (should be ready tomorrow), lower the car to the ground, make the Mopar accelerator/kick down bracket work with the 2004R TV cable, fill with trans fluid, re-torque the two top bolts on the tranny (can't reach them from underneath), connect the trans cooler to the hoses (top side) and go for a test ride!!!

OH Yeah>............CHECK FOR LEAKS!!!!!!

Treblig

 

[Woods74]

Killer, looks like a weekend cruise to me!

 

[Treblig]

Yes, with a little luck I have a nice, quiet weekend cruise burning rubber!!!!!!!!!!!!

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Got a lot done today........
Buttoned up the trans inspection pan and the Mopar front cover (mildly modified). Connected the HD trans cooler. Picked up the driveshaft and installed it. The dip stick tube was delivered today (will install tomorrow). Extra pics of the trans lines with brackets. Pics of the adapter fittings I put together to adapt the 5/16" GM trans line to the smaller Mopar connections (now I have more flow!!!). Some shots of the piece of TCI adapter I cut off because it was hanging too low, now it just above the tranny pan. Now that I have the dip stick tube there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to start the car tomorrow if can finish modifying the accelerator/TV bracket. I only had 30 minutes to work on the bracket and I should have it finished in another hour or so. I'll have pics tomorrow of the bracket and carb linkage set-up. Had a bunch of other stuff to do today so I only had a couple of hours to work on the car.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

I forgot to make sure and mention that the 2004R is METRIC transmission. So all bolts are metric including the bolts that hold the inspection cover. But then again, the housing is aluminum and easy to tap out to a larger SAE size bolt for the inspection pan

Treblig

 

[Woods74]

This is insane.. rayer:

 

[Treblig]

I posted the drive shaft length at 52 3/16" but if you've read all my posts you should remember that I replaced my 7 1/4 rear with a HD Chevy 10 bolt posi w/12 bolt axles. Now don't beat me up (again) for using GM stuff on my Barracuda. I would have gladly installed a 8 3/4 if they didn't cost a small fortune where I live. The 10 bolt was free and the parts are very inexpensive. To make the 10 bolt even a better deal...I already had the 15 X 10 1960's slotted rear wheels with Chevy bolt pattern in my garage. So I saved on wheels as well as the rear.
Anyway, most if not all of you here at FABO will have a Mopar differentials so the measurement I gave for the drive shaft will not apply to your build.

treblig

 

[Woods74]

Hey, it's the same reason I, and many others, have an 8.8. Economics.

 

[Treblig]

Long day but I managed to get everything done except start the engine. The guy that owns the shop had to leave early so I had to come home early. But I did manage to get the accelerator/TV cable bracket completed and installed...CHECK OUT THE PICS!!! It was more trouble getting the new bracket in and out 6 or 7 times until I got it right where I wanted it. The bracket is basically a Mopar small block bracket slightly modified to accept the GM TV cable bracket. Pics also show the different brackets I had including the original blue bracket that came off my '69 barracuda and the other ones I had modified in advance. If you look at the carb you'll see the silver metal bracket that I bought that adapts the Edelbrock carb linkage to accept 2004R TV cable. You can make this piece at home but it's so cheap it's worth buying one. Anyway it came out pretty nice but I ran out of space for pics so I'll post the rest of the pics (Lokar drip stick tube, TV cable route and clamps, etc) a little later.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Forgot to mention that I had a hell of time trying to get the Lokar dip stick tube into the trans. I wish that I had known that there was so little space I could barely get my hand on it. After about an hour of struggling it finally went all the way in. In the pics you can see how close the floor boards are to the dip stick hole. I have no idea how Mopar to Ya got his GM tube in there???? Anyway, next time I'll know to get the dip stick tube before I put the trans into the car so there's plenty of room to get it in there.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Last post for the night. Forgot about these. These are the pics of the TV cable. It's best if you don't let the TV cable rub against the exhaust and that you don't put any sharp bends in it. I happened to find a factory bolt sticking out the fire wall just under the blower motor. I made me a metal clip, drilled a hole in it, slipped it over the TV cable and secured it nice and solid to the fire wall. Now the TV cable hugs the fire wall and can't get tangled up with anything else. Tomorrow I need to make a simple bracket to support the new dip stick tube. It's a fire wall mount type tube but I don't want to drill any holes so I'll make a 1/8" X 3/4" bracket and attach it to another bolt (sticking out of the fire wall) just on the other side of the blower motor. Will have pics tomorrow and I should be driving the car as well.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

ALMOST THERE!!!!! Spent the morning fabricating a bracket to support the dip stick tube. Then we jacked up the rear and set it on jack stands, filled the tranny with fluid, cranked the motor and slowly put it through the gears. I filled the trans at least 4 times then I would start it and run it through the gears to get the fluid to fill the torque converter and the radiator and the new cooler. That's something that many people don't know, the best way to ruin a new transmission is to assume it's full (if the dip stick says it's full) then drive the car around. The approved method is to put the rear on jack stands and keep putting it through the gears and keep filling the tranny until it remains full....THEN put it on the ground for a test drive. I've heard of many people who check the fluid level on a new tranny and assume that the whole system is full then they drive their car around for a few miles and ruin the new tranny.
Did seem to have a vibration at 60 MPH, I think my rear end angle needs adjustment. Will get rear wheels checked for balance first!!

Anyway, no time right now will post pics later today.
PS- NOT ONE LEAK>>>>It's a miracle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:

:blob: :burnout:
Treblig

 

[jbc426]

ALMOST THERE!!!!! Spent the morning fabricating a bracket to support the dip stick tube. Then we jacked up the rear and set it on jack stands, filled the tranny with fluid, cranked the motor and slowly put it through the gears. I filled the trans at least 4 times then I would start it and run it through the gears to get the fluid to fill the torque converter and the radiator and the new cooler. That's something that many people don't know, the best way to ruin a new transmission is to assume it's full (if the dip stick says it's full) then drive the car around. The approved method is to put the rear on jack stands and keep putting it through the gears and keep filling the tranny until it remains full....THEN put it on the ground for a test drive. I've heard of many people who check the fluid level on a new tranny and assume that the whole system is full then they drive their car around for a few miles and ruin the new tranny.
Did seem to have a vibration at 60 MPH, I think my rear end angle needs adjustment. Will get rear wheels checked for balance first!!

Anyway, no time right now will post pics later today.
PS- NOT ONE LEAK>>>>It's a miracle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers:

:blob: :burnout:
Treblig

Treblig, I want to personally thank you for the tremendous job you've done both on the car and with the incredibly detailed documentation of the install! I am about to begin the process of putting in a 200R4 in my '68 convertible Barracuda. Thanks in part to gaining the knowledge and confidence from the story you have told so well here. Just being able to study your pictures and learn from how you overcame the challenges, inspired me to go for it too.

Even though I will be taking a few shortcuts, like buying a ready-built transmission, using an aftermarket cable shifter and skipping the engine-plate adapter, my hat is off to you and your buddy! Love the post. I will try to make an attempt to document my install and will use your post as an example of how to do a decent job of it.

Kudos!!!

:cheers:

jbc426

 

[Treblig]

Treblig, I want to personally thank you for the tremendous job you've done both on the car and with the incredibly detailed documentation of the install! I am about to begin the process of putting in a 200R4 in my '68 convertible Barracuda. Thanks in part to gaining the knowledge and confidence from the story you have told so well here. Just being able to study your pictures and learn from how you overcame the challenges, inspired me to go for it too.

Even though I will be taking a few shortcuts, like buying a ready-built transmission, using an aftermarket cable shifter and skipping the engine-plate adapter, my hat is off to you and your buddy! Love the post. I will try to make an attempt to document my install and will use your post as an example of how to do a decent job of it.

Kudos!!!

:cheers:

jbc426

Thanks for the Kudos and to be fair I was inspired by "Mopar To Ya" if it hadn't been for him blazing the (TCI) trail on the 2004R swap I probably would not have attempted it. There is very little I can't do but I would have hated to rip out my perfectly good 904 only to find that the 2004R wouldn't quite fit. Mopar To Ya included some important pics that helped me a lot but I decided to make it as easy as possible for everyone else by describing every detail as accurately as possible and taking as many pics as possible. Every time I pulled out my camera my friend would say, "More pictures???, we've never going to get this done if you keep stopping to take pictures!!!!" I would tell him that I'm doing it for the folks on the FABO website because that's where I get all my Mopar information.
If there's anything you (or anyone else) needs to know about the swap OR any detailed pics of any area just let me know and I'll do my best to post them. I personally don't like having my car down (not drivable) so I engineered and fabricated most everything in advance that way I could get it done quickly. I could have saved two days of work if I had known to cut off those BOP ears that were sticking out at the top of the housing.

This thread is quickly coming to an END! Test drive on Monday with a few last posts about how everything turns out. Then, after I install the 4:10 gears I'll let every know how that goes. Look for my vibration problem. Somebody also asked me to post about how the non lock up converter does, so I'll post about that.

PS - Here are the last few pics of the dip stick bracket I made this morning. It's a fire wall mount type tube but since I hate putting holes in my nice original Cuda I made this bracket and bolted to an existing factory bolt that sticks out of the fire wall.


Thanks again,
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here's some important information for anyone who might do this swap. The TCI adapter in 1/4" thick and I believe the wilcap is 1/2" or 5/8" thick. Either way if you use the TCI the biggest problem you might have is cutting enough in one particular area of the cross member. I cut mine by using pics in Mopar To Ya's posts but the pics really don't show where you need to cut a little extra. So here are the pics that show exactly where you need to cut a little extra.
Now keep in might that if you use an adapter plate that is thicker than 1/4" then you'll have to remove even more in the area. Also, if you use anything thicker than 1/4" you'll also have to remove some off the cross member on the opposite side because the tranny housing gets very close on the passenger's side (even with the TCI plate). I shaved a little off just for insurance and I also had to remove the (for lack of a better word) mounting lug on the passenger's side of the housing. So if you look at these pics and see where I have the arrows pointing to that vertical edge where I had already cut...then I would remove another 1/4" more material from what you see in the pics. In my case, I installed the tranny right after taking these pics and once I finally got in all the way (and bolted up) I didn't want to remove it to cut more in this area. So I lowered the tranny/engine as low as possible and used a coarse rat tail file and a die grinder to remove more material. It took 2 hours but I managed to remove enough to give me the clearance I needed. If I had known in advance I could have easily cut off all I wanted in about 3 minutes BEFORE I installed the tranny (same goes for the other side).
I was trying to leave as much of the radius for strength but with the extra 1/8" plates I installed (over the cross member) it probably would have been easier just to remove another 1/4" from this area because I ended up having to do it anyway.

Good Luck,
Treblig

 

[jbc426]

Thanks for the additional info in this critical spot. After all, for most folks, cutting the cross-member is one of the main things everyone wants to avoid, or at least minimize.

With this latest information, I'm hoping I can end up cutting even less by using the bolt on bellhousing method instead of the plate style adapters. This one is for the small block Mopars and modern Hemi bolt pattern. It's the same SFI rated bellhousing they've used for years on the 2-piece powerglide race transmissions.

Time will tell.

 

[Treblig]

Thanks for the additional info in this critical spot. After all, for most folks, cutting the cross-member is one of the main things everyone wants to avoid, or at least minimize.

With this latest information, I'm hoping I can end up cutting even less by using the bolt on bellhousing method instead of the plate style adapters. This one is for the small block Mopars and modern Hemi bolt pattern. It's the same SFI rated bellhousing they've used for years on the 2-piece powerglide race transmissions.

Time will tell.

Looks pretty cool!! But remember there are two basic things that determine which route a member will take. First is cost, if it's too expensive it will prevent most folks from going forward. Second is "ease of installation", I'm a machinist and a welder so I can make and modify almost anything, many members have limited resources so "ease of installation" is critical. Your set up (if I'm reading you correctly) should be very easy to install without hardly any modifications to the body. But on the other hand it looks expensive. I managed to put mine together for about $1700 including a HD trans and torque converter (free labor). The Gearvendor ends up costing around $3000.00 after all is said and done.

I commend you on your efforts but just about everybody on the web site is really interested in COST and ease of installation (little or no cutting on our precious babies!!). I had to cut on my baby because I couldn't afford the other routes!! Could you give us some insight on how much you've already spent and how much you think it will cost in the end???? In my case the cost ended up being about 20 percent more than I estimated (probably standard).
Now if you want to give these folks some real good info post your estimated costs (current and future as I did early on) and post the dimensions of your set up from the front face of the bell housing (mounting surface) to the end of the tail housing (rear seal). If you do this it will accomplish two things.....Members can determine if it is within their financial resources to go this route AND I can measure my set up from bell to tail and tell everyone how much cutting if any you'll have to do. The 2004R housing can not be cut in the area that I recently mentioned on my last post so the cross member on the driver's side will be the biggest obstacle as to whether you have to cut (or not) because if you have to cut just a little it may be too much for some members.
So let us know these two things and we'll definitely observe you as you build your overdrive set up.

As an observation: I'm using a stock sized converter with the stock bell housing. The aftermarket bell housing you have has to (at least) be as long as the factory bell so that it creates enough space for the converter, flex plate, etc. My point is....If I removed the TCI adapter plate (1/4") it would put the factory bell up against the block face which would move the transmission forward 1/4". I had to remove approximately 1 1/4" inches off the cross member on the driver's side so even if I hadn't stuck the 1/4" adapter plate in there I still would have had to cut out an inch of material. I could be wrong of course, but if you post the dimensions I'm asking for I can verify my theory.
If you post all this info today I can take measurements on my car tomorrow before I take it off the rack.
Good Luck on your overdrive quest!!!!!!!

Thanks,
Treblig

 

[jbc426]

Oh no, I get it. Cost and value are always concerns. I've never bought a new car and I'm 52 years old now. I've always spent my "extra" money on my two old hot rods.

I know my limitations when it comes to doing certain things mechanically. In my case, I opted for professionally built transmission and paid extra to have the adapter ring installed at Extreme Automatics. I got out the door at around $2800 delivered with some necessary accessory items. I bought the bellhousing from Reid directly $350 delivered, B&M shifter from Summit at around $200 and then after reading for years how important a high quality torque converter is, I opted to go with a high dollar ($800) billet unit from Precision Torque Converters. So without figuring a gear change in my 8 3/4 plus a new driveshaft, I'm already in at over $4k.

FWIW, there's a lot of guys putting the Modern Hemis in these old Mopars. The transmission options for them have been somewhat limited, pricey, require major surgery and often require computers to control them. This set-up would bolt right up to a Modern Hemi with a slightly different torque converter design, but they would have to use a manual transmission computer or aftermarket EFI system.

Yes, It's a lot of money for a rather cool and somewhat easy to install drivetrain. Then again, I've had the car 10 years and have slowly been upgrading it into what I have always wanted it to be. It started out as a slant 6 car that was solid, but needed a lot of upgrades to truly be the hotrod I envisioned when I picked it up. I did the brakes, large bolt pattern wheels, suspension, re-enforced the chassis a bit and swapped in a tired EFI 5.9 & used 727 a few winters ago. I saved my money and am stuffing a 408" stroker in at the same time as the transmission. Those are a little pricey to build these days too.

Here's a cut and paste from the thread I started a few weeks ago regarding the measurements.

"OK, thanks!.
I used a straight edge on the output shaft and hooked my tape measure to the face of the bellhousing . I measured 29 1/16" from the bellhousing face to the end of the output shaft.

When I measured from the bellhousing face to the end of the aluminum tail section where the seal goes, I got 28 3/8".

I found this on the web. It's hard to see, but the stock length appears to be 28 1/4" from bellhousing face to the end of the cast tailshaft. The upper measurement in the photo relates to the centerline of the rear mounting bolt holes, which is shown as 27 15/16".

I'm assuming is 1/8 of an inch longer than a stock 200R4, but my measuring could be off too.

I'm going to go out in a bit and drop the torque converter into it, so I can see if the mounting tabs for the flex plate are going to end up in the right location. I've already had to ship it back once because it didn't clear the added depth of the tone ring style flex plate I run for the EFI."

 

[Treblig]

Now we're talking good, hard DATA!! Something we can sink our teeth into. I understand what you are doing. I also have a vision of what I want my car to be and I'm willing to spend a bit of money on the car (like you). But I also like making/manufacturing/welding so the TCI route was best for me moneywise. I'll check the trans length tomorrow while the car is still on the rack. I also plan to take an exact measurement of the location (centerline) of the upper cross member relative to the 2004R housing and the 2004R mount. If I can tell everyone exactly where the center of the cross member crosses the 2004R housing it will make it a lot easier to manufacture a mount knowing how far back behind the cross member it needs to be (something I wish I had known in advance). If I had had this dimension beforehand I could have made the new trans mount much more precise and it would have taken less time to install.
I was able to get real close by having a spare 904 that I could place next to the 2004R. Then I butchered a 904 lower cross member to get it to go in the same linier location (front to back) on the 2004R. I had to leave a lot of extra material on the mount pieces to cut off after installation but it worked out perfect.
Wish I had EFI on my engine!!

treblig