Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

[Treblig]

I forgot to post the pic of the GN governor. You can see how it compares to the regular (standard) governor.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here's another item you might consider replacing BEFORE you install a 2004R into your Mopar. Along with the better governor you'll also need to replace the speedometer (trans) drive gears. There are two of them and the colors and number of teeth can be found all over the internet. One is called the "driven gear" and the other is the "drive gear". If you know the rear end ratio that you going to end up with you should replace these speedo gears as you get your transmission overhauled to save you some trouble later. I hadn't decided on my rear end ratio (not 100 percent anyway) so I didn't replace my speedo gears BUT I SHOULD HAVE!! It's a pain in the @ss to drain the fluid and remove the pan then remove governor cover and pull the speedo coupler...it's not hard, but it's something you can avoid if you know what to do in advance. The dark green plastic gear in the pics is commonly found in the Grand National transmission (no surprise). The grand national typically comes with lower gears so unless you happen to get a GN transmission you'll have to replace these gears. Same goes for the governor.
I'll be doing all this and documenting it here on FABO so that you might have an easier time at it.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here's one that somebody really cut down to get the shifting where they wanted it. There's barely any weight left...LOL!! I should be able to do the governor swap this weekend and also change the speedo gears. I'll take plenty of pics and post them. Again, if you're smart, you'll do all this (Or have it done) when you get the tranny overhauled and it won't cost a dime extra. I would have done all this during overhaul but there's no way to know where the car will shift until you actually drive it with the new tranny.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Too many pics to post so I'll have to do it a few at a time. The trans pan came off with no problems after I had drained it (SO HAPPY that I put a drain plug on it!!!). Once I removed the pan I removed the four governor cover bolts and lowered the cover. The governor (as seen in pics) sits in a bored hole in the cover. Be careful, because when you lower the cover the governor comes with it (or at least it should). In the last few pics you can see the new (modified governor) sitting in the bore of the governor cover. It simply slides out of the governor (no pins, clips).
Once I had removed the governor I then removed the bolt that holds the metal tab onto the speedo plug. REMEMBER, everything is metric. Once the speedo plug metal tab is removed the speedo plug can be carefully pried out. The speedo plug has an O-ring installed in an O-ring groove on the outside of the barrel. This O-ring seals in the tranny fluid so handle it carefully. There is also a small internal seal inside the plug, this seal keeps fluid from getting past the light green speedo gear shaft. This internal seal had been recently replaced when the tranny was overhauled so there was no need to change it. The speedo gear that resides in the plug simply slides out once you get the plug out of the tranny. The end of this plastic gear butts up against a machined surface inside the tranny so there are no clips or locks that hold it in (it's basically trapped). I replaced the old speedo gear (the one in the plug), you can see the new blue plastic gear installed in the 7th pic if you through the governor hole. Then I swapped out the governors. I had already installed the new green gear on the modified governor so all I had to do is pull the old governor out and slide the new one onto the cover. Then I reinstalled the speedo plug with the new gear and locked it in with the metal tab (be careful with the O-ring). Then I slid the new governor w/cover into place and torqued the four bolts. More later with more pics and details on how the new modified governor helped my shift points...I'm so happy :toothy7:!!!!LOL.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

After installing the new governor I cleaned the pan which had a little break-in sludge on the bottom. Then I installed transmission temp sending unit. After that I installed the pan and ran the wiring from the sending unit up into the engine bay. I filled the tranny with fluid and drove it home. Before the governor change the transmission would shift at 2000-2100 during WOT from a dead stop ( I checked it numerous times, it was very consistent). On the way home I made numerous WOT starts from a dead stop and the transmission consistently shifted at 2800. I was shooting for 3500-4000 but 2800 was much better than 2000. Now that I have another "standard" governor (the one I removed today) I can modify it by removing more metal than I removed from the one I just installed. I already have a good idea of how much to remove. The next time I drop the pan it will go much faster because I won't need to replace the speedo gears. OH!!! One more thing...I plan to get the 3.73 gears installed next week. After the new rear gears are installed I plan to make more WOT starts to see how the low gears affect the governor response, then I'll decide how much to remove off of the "standard" governor. It should be interesting to see how the lower gears effect the governor weights because the plastic governor gears run directly off of the trans output shaft. With lower gears the output shaft will spin much faster at the same highway speed than it did with the higher gears. The new plastic speedo gears should give me the correct speedometer reading at all speeds as they are matched to the 3.73s. I really enjoyed the ride home, it was nice to hear the engine wind a little without having to manually shift the transmission. I will update this post as soon as I make some test runs with the new rear gears.

PS- I have searched the internet for months and have yet to find a definitive answer to the question, "how does each governor weight effect WOT shifts, does the light weight control anything different than the heavy weight or do they both effect WOT shifts???" I removed some metal off of both weights but I have no idea which one helped?????

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Finally finished hooking up all the wires to the trans temp gage. I have been wondering how hot my new 2004R has been running considering I am using a non-locking convertor. Tranny experts warn about how high trans fluid temps can kill your transmission. My 1800 stall convertor should have been slipping a lot driving around town at less than highway speeds. After I got the gage connected I drove around town for 25 minutes (98 degrees outside). I even made quite a few hard launches to get the tranny nice and hot. But it seems that no matter what I did it wouldn't go above 155 degrees. Of course I did use a HD trans fluid cooler in line with the radiator cooler so that must be why it's staying so cool. The charts say that anything below 175 degrees will allow your tranny fluid to last up to 100,000 miles without damage. I won't do that but it's nice to know that my tranny is running nice and cool even when I pound it a little.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

I forgot to mention that there was a lot of discussion about lock-up or non-lock convertors as I built and installed this 2004R. I really didn't want all the extra wiring and the solenoids to disengage the convertor at low speeds, yada, yada, yada!! The non-lock convertors produce more heat because they never lock up. This extra heat can cause the fluid temperatures to rise and basically fry the fluid. But as we all know the non-lock up torque convertors were used for 20-30 years (very successfully) before the lock-up convertor was designed and built. Back in those days they solved the problem of the extra heat by putting a trans fluid cooler in the radiator (something they still do today). On heavy duty trucks they also install the extra cooler (in front of the radiator). So a transmission with a non-lock up torque convertor has no problem surviving in todays environment especially with the added HD cooler up front. I really can't believe how cool my fluid is staying, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth (whatever that's supposed to mean).
Now if can just get that mechanic friend of mine to swap out my rear gears##*^^)(^(**!!!!!!

Treblig

 

[Woods74]

It's all about converter efficiency, and spending the coin for a good one. Forum junkies bench race too much. They need to get out and do the damn thing instead of spreading rumors. Glad it worked out for ya, diving into the non-lock OD soon. :angel12:

 

[Treblig]

It's all about converter efficiency, and spending the coin for a good one. Forum junkies bench race too much. They need to get out and do the damn thing instead of spreading rumors. Glad it worked out for ya, diving into the non-lock OD soon. :angel12:

Which OD are you planning on using??? Do you plan to document it here on FABO??

treblig

 

[Treblig]

Well I finally got my mechanic to install the 3.73 gears into my Barracuda. Unfortunately he said to cruise around at varying speeds for 100 miles or so before I stomp on it. I'm looking for two things: will I get enough low end response off the line and how will the lower gears affect the WOT shifts with my new (modified) 2004R governor??? I might be barking up the wrong tree because I just received my 15X12 polished rims (15x12" Weld Pro Star Drag Race Wheels) for the rear. I'm planning on running these tires:

[ame="http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Thompson-90000000225-6642-Sportsman-S-R-Radial-Tire-29x15-00R15-/161135662386?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Tires&vxp=mtr&hash=item25846f1532"]Mickey Thompson 90000000225 6642 Sportsman s R Radial Tire 29x15 00R15 | eBay[/ame]

now that I have the rims. These new tires are about 3 inches taller (1 1/2" per side) and may further affect my WOT governor response. We'll see?????

Treblig

 

[jbc426]

I just found the add on's to this thread tonight. Interesting about the governor and the speedo gears. I wonder how far mine will be off with the 3.91's. The builder said mine should shift at 5400 to 5800 rpm with the governor he installed at wide open throttle. Otherwise it will shift like a normal trans with light throttle pressure.

Also on my lock-up converter, it only engages in 4th and automatically turns off if you forget to flip the 12 volt switch and slow down enough for it to drop into 3rd or lower. It's all internally hydraulically controlled, and only uses one 12v wire to engage/disengage the lock-up clutches in 4th.

I wonder how that will work with a 3000 stall converter. It has 3 discs, so the added weight of a lock-up converter is not desirable if you are planning on doing a lot of 1/4 or 1/8 mile drag racing.

I used an extension for my speedometer cable, which I think I saw on your post Treblig. It fits great.

 

[Treblig]

I just found the add on's to this thread tonight. Interesting about the governor and the speedo gears. I wonder how far mine will be off with the 3.91's. The builder said mine should shift at 5400 to 5800 rpm with the governor he installed at wide open throttle. Otherwise it will shift like a normal trans with light throttle pressure. Also on my lock-up converter, it only engages in 4th and automatically turns off if you forget to flip the 12 volt switch and slow down enough for it to drop into 3rd or lower. It's all internally hydraulically controlled, and only uses one 12v wire to engage/disengage the lock-up clutches in 4th. I wonder how that will work with a 3000 stall converter. It has 3 discs, so the added weight of a lock-up converter is not desirable if you are planning on doing a lot of 1/4 or 1/8 mile drag racing.I used an extension for my speedometer cable, which I think I saw on your post Treblig. It fits great.

JBC, I wondered about all that stuff a lot when I was planning my swap. To solve the problem I went with the non-lockup converter. I didn't know and wasn't sure when the trans would try and shift into 4th gear because it would probably depend on rear end gear ratio and tire size. And since I wasn't sure what gear ratio I was going to be happy with I couldn't take the chance. If your converter doesn't lock up until 3000 RPM your not going to be able to take full advantage of the overdrive. I'm running 3.73 right now with 26.5 tall tires and my RPM is around 2300 at 60 MPH (in forth gear). Using my car as an example, if I had your converter, it would never stop slipping unless I drove 80-90 miles an hour (or whatever MPH you get when you go 3000 RPM). My converter locks at 1800 RPM so at 60 MPH (2300 RPM) I know it's locked in. With your lock up switch you can lock your converter anytime but your stall speed will keep the converter slipping until you reach 3000 RPM. This creates some extra heat when cruising but your extra cooler should take care of that (I think). Even with a stall of 1800 like mine I worried about heat at lower speed (35-55 MPH) and that's why I installed a trans temp heat gage. As it turned out the tranny stays real cool at all speeds but my converter doesn't slip as much as your does??
I recently got some bigger rims 15 X 12 and even taller tires (29 inch). This will put me at an even lower RPM at cruising speeds so that makes me really glad that I went with a 1800 stall non-lock up converter. I might have to go with a lower gear but I still wouldn't have to worry about any high stall.
Hope this helps.....
Treblig

 

[Woods74]

If you get a quality cut-to-fit converter, you can cruise well below the rated stall speed. I have a 3500 stall 9.5" non-lock, and it cruises nice and cool at 2100. Shorter gears in back help out too.

Don't loose any sleep over it, I asked the converter manufacturer directly and they weren't worried at all. I paid $515 shipped. Very happy.

 

[Treblig]

If you get a quality cut-to-fit converter, you can cruise well below the rated stall speed. I have a 3500 stall 9.5" non-lock, and it cruises nice and cool at 2100. Shorter gears in back help out too.Don't loose any sleep over it, I asked the converter manufacturer directly and they weren't worried at all. I paid $515 shipped. Very happy.

That's what I also heard, "get a good quality converter" as they are more efficient. I'm sure JBC bought a real good one and he also has a large cooler with larger lines. I don't think he will have a heat problem. The main thrust of my comments was that you're not going to get the gas mileage that you planned on at highway speeds if your converter's stall speed is way above your cruising RPM. I wonder if the high stall converter manufacturers can tell you how much slippage you'll get at a particular RPM (below stall speed but at cruising speed). But of course for many people "it really doesn't matter"!! If you want to race the car then you need the high stall. Too bad they don't make a converter with a lock up feature on the stall...LOL!!

Treblig

 

[Woods74]

Next time I go for a cruise I'll let you know, it's not much. The last time I floated the fourms the general word is %6. Just a few years ago 12% was the norm. These new converters 'stick' to whatever rpm you put them at.

 

[jbc426]

JBC, I wondered about all that stuff a lot when I was planning my swap. To solve the problem I went with the non-lockup converter. I didn't know and wasn't sure when the trans would try and shift into 4th gear because it would probably depend on rear end gear ratio and tire size. And since I wasn't sure what gear ratio I was going to be happy with I couldn't take the chance. If your converter doesn't lock up until 3000 RPM your not going to be able to take full advantage of the overdrive. I'm running 3.73 right now with 26.5 tall tires and my RPM is around 2300 at 60 MPH (in forth gear). Using my car as an example, if I had your converter, it would never stop slipping unless I drove 80-90 miles an hour (or whatever MPH you get when you go 3000 RPM). My converter locks at 1800 RPM so at 60 MPH (2300 RPM) I know it's locked in. With your lock up switch you can lock your converter anytime but your stall speed will keep the converter slipping until you reach 3000 RPM. This creates some extra heat when cruising but your extra cooler should take care of that (I think). Even with a stall of 1800 like mine I worried about heat at lower speed (35-55 MPH) and that's why I installed a trans temp heat gage. As it turned out the tranny stays real cool at all speeds but my converter doesn't slip as much as your does??
I recently got some bigger rims 15 X 12 and even taller tires (29 inch). This will put me at an even lower RPM at cruising speeds so that makes me really glad that I went with a 1800 stall non-lock up converter. I might have to go with a lower gear but I still wouldn't have to worry about any high stall.
Hope this helps.....
Treblig

No, no Treblig. When I flip the switch in 4th gear it locks up 100% right then and there. The stall speed is not a factor once the converter is in lock-up mode in 4th gear. However, once the rpm's get so low that it down shifts into 3rd (and I have no idea what speed or rpm that is yet) it will automatically un-lock the clucthes in the converter. It will only lock up in 4th, even when there is 12v going to the transmission.

Again, at light or full throttle on the highway, as long as it is in 4th gear, with 12v switched on the converter will stay locked-up and provide 100% direct drive, even as low as 1400 rpm (If the transmission doesn't downshift to 3rd).

If I switch it off and cruise in 4th gear it will add a few hundred rpm at cruising speed, but once the throttle is wide open it will flash to 3000 rpm and climb with a very low slippage and high efficiency from there. Just as it would in any gear.

Treblig, at what speed and RPM does your transmission downshift out of 4th when you are at very light throttle on the road? I got my converter from Precision Torque Converters of New Hampton. It is a Mopar style 4-bolt attaching converter with a GM hub that fits into the 200R4. The hard part was getting it to the correct thickness without the parts on hand to give an accurate measurement. Once I got that. Precision took care of the rest. It is one of their highest quality converters with the same lock-up clutch system they use for diesel trucks that pull heavy trailers. They assured me it is a very efficient converter even when not locked up only allowing a few hundred rpm slippage at light to moderate throttle, but once the throttle is wide open it will flash to 3000 rpm if it's not already past that rpm.

In other words, if I am cruising in 4th gear at 2000 RPM with the converter clutches locked up, the lock-up clutches will stop it from flashing to 3000 rpm and acting just like a direct drive manual clutch that is fully engaged.

 

[Treblig]

No, no Treblig. When I flip the switch in 4th gear it locks up 100% right then and there. The stall speed is not a factor once the converter is in lock-up mode in 4th gear. However, once the rpm's get so low that it down shifts into 3rd (and I have no idea what speed or rpm that is yet) it will automatically un-lock the clucthes in the converter. It will only lock up in 4th, even when there is 12v going to the transmission. Again, at light or full throttle on the highway, as long as it is in 4th gear, with 12v switched on the converter will stay locked-up and provide 100% direct drive, even as low as 1400 rpm (If the transmission doesn't downshift to 3rd). If I switch it off and cruise in 4th gear it will add a few hundred rpm at cruising speed, but once the throttle is wide open it will flash to 3000 rpm and climb with a very low slippage and high efficiency from there. Just as it would in any gear.Treblig, at what speed and RPM does your transmission downshift out of 4th when you are at very light throttle on the road? I got my converter from Precision Torque Converters of New Hampton. It is a Mopar style 4-bolt attaching converter with a GM hub that fits into the 200R4. The hard part was getting it to the correct thickness without the parts on hand to give an accurate measurement. Once I got that. Precision took care of the rest. It is one of their highest quality converters with the same lock-up clutch system they use for diesel trucks that pull heavy trailers. They assured me it is a very efficient converter even when not locked up only allowing a few hundred rpm slippage at light to moderate throttle, but once the throttle is wide open it will flash to 3000 rpm if it's not already past that rpm. In other words, if I am cruising in 4th gear at 2000 RPM with the converter clutches locked up, the lock-up clutches will stop it from flashing to 3000 rpm and acting just like a direct drive manual clutch that is fully engaged.

That makes sense. I have tried numerous times to determine when my transmission shift into and out of 4 gear. No matter how hard I listen or how well I try to feel I can not tell when it shifts. It's so smooth and flawless I can't tell. I wondered myself but there's no way to find out because when your decelerating the RPM is dropping and if it shifts out of forth I can't see in it on the tach.

treblig

 

[transman]

That's what I also heard, "get a good quality converter" as they are more efficient. I'm sure JBC bought a real good one and he also has a large cooler with larger lines. I don't think he will have a heat problem. The main thrust of my comments was that you're not going to get the gas mileage that you planned on at highway speeds if your converter's stall speed is way above your cruising RPM. I wonder if the high stall converter manufacturers can tell you how much slippage you'll get at a particular RPM (below stall speed but at cruising speed). But of course for many people "it really doesn't matter"!! If you want to race the car then you need the high stall. Too bad they don't make a converter with a lock up feature on the stall...LOL!!

Treblig

Lockup high stalls are available for GM & FORD in diameters as small as 9.5 inches.

 

[dragondan64]

Can I inquire as to why you are putting a GM part in a mopar? Just curious and not trying to be a smartass at all I have been away from this awhile and am curious I hear of ford wheels and chevy trans going into mopars and wondering whats wrong with mopar stuff and keeping to the brand?

 

[jbc426]

Some do it for cost savings, parts availability and performance improvements. Everyone has there own reasons for doing it or not, but Dana Corp makes parts for all of the big three.

I draw the line at engines, rear ends and anything visible with the hood open. Others go farther, and that's fine.

Some drag folks have been running 2 speed powerglides in their Mopars and have been for decades with little grief over it being a "GM" part.;

Some folks still look for 40 year old heater hoses to put on their cars to make them look like they were never touched from the factory on day one. It's all BS! I hated the way my cars ran, handled and drove in stock form. To each his own, but I do hate seeing Chevy motors in anything, but a chevy. I do have a lot of respect for their performance though, Ford too!

Most people now days, with the exception of some people on this board and a few others boards would never know the difference anyway.

Some Mopars are amongst some of the best looking cars ever made, and look what some folks have doe to ruin that with paint jobs, ugly oversized rims and the list goes on.

 

[dragondan64]

Some do it for cost savings, parts availability and performance improvements. Everyone has there own reasons for doing it or not, but Dana Corp makes parts for all of the big three. I draw the line at engines, rear ends and anything visible with the hood open. Others go farther, and that's fine. Some drag folks have been running 2 speed powerglides in their Mopars and have been for decades with little grief over it being a "GM" part.; Some folks still look for 40 year old heater hoses to put on their cars to make them look like they were never touched from the factory on day one. It's all BS! I hated the way my cars ran, handled and drove in stock form. To each his own, but I do hate seeing Chevy motors in anything, but a chevy. I do have a lot of respect for their performance though, Ford too!Most people now days, with the exception of some people on this board and a few others boards would never know the difference anyway.Some Mopars are amongst some of the best looking cars ever made, and look what some folks have doe to ruin that with paint jobs, ugly oversized rims and the list goes on.

Yeah I see your points and agree with you. Was curious and had to inquire, thanks!

 

[Treblig]

Yeah I see your points and agree with you. Was curious and had to inquire, thanks!

I used the 2004R because it fit in my Barracuda with only minor modification. If you use a Mopar overdrive you have to really cut up your car. To me cutting up your car is just as disrespectful as putting a GM transmission in it. So I took the lesser of two evils. My car is a "survivor" and I didn't want to butcher it, it was just too nice!! The transmission was almost freeand I got a very good deal on the overhaul. The labor was free and I only spend about $1700 total to get a very nice overdrive while still retaining my beautiful console shifter. Now I get extremely good gas mileage and it's not too bad off the line either!! Treblig

One more thing...after 13,000 views there's at least one or two people out there interested in this swap!!! Now really, 13 thousand views is more than almost 1/2 of the "stickys" in the transmission forum!!!!!

 

[joeboy]

Treblig,

The views in this thread does speak to your high level of documentation, and great info about this swap. The PICS sure are nice too. I know you have me pinching my pennies… I bet settling into OD on a cruise is awesome. Nice work.

JOE

 

[Treblig]

Treblig, The views in this thread does speak to your high level of documentation, and great info about this swap. The PICS sure are nice too. I know you have me pinching my pennies… I bet settling into OD on a cruise is awesome. Nice work. JOE

Thanks Joe!!! You have no idea how difficult it was to stop in the middle of something important, clean all the dirt and grime off my hands, pull out the camera and take some pics. When you're in the middle of assembling something you've been planning for over a yearyou want to finish it, you don't want to keep stopping to take pics. But I knew, just like "MoparToYa", you're not helping anyone if you don't take as many pics as possible. Keep saving your pennies and, like me, there are many things you an do to prepare for the big day. The majority of the work took very little money (new cross member, speedo cable, exhaust re-route, speedo cable re-route, shifter linkage, revers light wiring, neutral safety switch, etc, etc). If you tackle all the nit picky stuff it advance you save time and money. If I hadn't run into the transmission ear(s) interference with the tunnel I could have swapped it out in two days. I also sold my 904 after I removed it along with the linkage so I got some of my money back. All in all if you subtract all the parts I sold from what I spent then I only spend about $1400......now that's some pretty inexpensive OVERDRIVING!!:burnout:


Treblig

 

[jbc426]

Treblig,
Your documentation was instrumental in convincing me I could do it too, with the exception of retaining the factory shifter. Kudos to your attention to detail and advice along the way. It's been critical. Sheez, when I sold my 727 and converter, it paid for my driveshaft. LOL.

I knew going in I was going to be spending some $ on a 408" Magnum and a stout 200R4 build with a fresh DR Diff built 489 case 3.91 geared pig with an Eaton True trac.

The year before cost me some $ to install a junkyard 5.9 with full exhaust, all the little parts a freshly rebuilt/used 727 and and slightly higher stall converter and a junkyard cone type 743 case 3.23 pig. Figuring out how to plumb and get the EFI up and running really good took some research and thinking. There are now some really cool fuel tank mods out there too I may add to this car and my carbureted car. Years before that. it was more $ for the chassis, suspension and brakes.

Since I have no car payments, I can save up some $ and do the car in stages. One day, I'll even paint the darn thing. It still looks good from 10 feet and has 70% original paint.

A couple more weeks and it will be time to turn the key and get some break-in miles on the motor and trans. I'm getting it down to bending trans cooler lines Installing the radiator and finishing up installing fresh front rotors, swapping out the front calipers to '76 Dodge Monaco units and installing braided brake lines front and rear.

I decided to tear out the dash and install a freshened 150 mph speedo and Vintage auto air during the winter when and if the rains come. I will install the condenser and receiver drier and plug them off, but for now, I just want to get the car on the road, before elk season opens for rifles in Nevada.

Thanks for the inspiration and support, Treblig!