Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

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Got it. Thanks again for the insight. I wonder why Summit doesn't carry the black poly ones? If anyone else can find them, please post the part number. I have the Shumaker adapter front motor mounts for the 5.9 Magnum into the Slant 6 K-frame.

I'm going out now to put in the 1" torsion bars, adjustable lower strut rods and lower control arm stiffening plates unless there's just too much stuff in the way with the engine and radiator etc sitting in the way. Once the motor is out, I'll add some gussets to my K member and stich weld that up.

I'll try and post some pics of the process.
 
Got it. Thanks again for the insight. I wonder why Summit doesn't carry the black poly ones? If anyone else can find them, please post the part number. I have the Shumaker adapter front motor mounts for the 5.9 Magnum into the Slant 6 K-frame.

I'm going out now to put in the 1" torsion bars, adjustable lower strut rods and lower control arm stiffening plates unless there's just too much stuff in the way with the engine and radiator etc sitting in the way. Once the motor is out, I'll add some gussets to my K member and stich weld that up.

I'll try and post some pics of the process.


I just came from O'riellys looking for a trans fluid temp gage. they didn't have any but I did see a GM poly trans mount in their performance parts section.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Energy-Suspension/355/3-1108R/10002/-1?parentProductId=743960#moreDetails

They have these at Jegs.

Treblig
 
I just came from O'riellys looking for a trans fluid temp gage. they didn't have any but I did see a GM poly trans mount in their performance parts section.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Energy-Suspension/355/3-1108R/10002/-1?parentProductId=743960#moreDetails

They have these at Jegs.

Treblig

I had a black one of these in my hand last night at Autozone. I just wasn't sure if it was the correct one for the 200R4. It sure looks tall compared to the stock one, but that's not really an issue with the cross member not being made yet.

Yesterday afternoon, I installed the new 1 inch Firm Feel torsion bar, the Hotchkis adjustable strut rod and the weld on lower control arm reinforcing plate. I got it all apart and back together in about 3 hours including a short lunch break.

It wasn't a bad of a job with the front end jacked up pretty high. It helped that since the front end had been apart with-in the last 5 years nothing was stuck or rusted. I did find some rust on my car earlier this year (this is the extent of the rust on this old convertible-it's one of the few remaining good things about California), and I found that my lower shock mount, which is also used to attach my aftermarket sway bar to the LCA was loose, and the dust boot on my caliper had come out. It took a bit to get that tucked back in.

I used Loctite on the bolts and some moly grease here and there to help everything stay together and not get seized up. I left the torsion bar out and moved the lower control arm through it's full range of motion to make sure there was no binding going on since I shortened up the effective length of the strut rod considerably. It sure freed up the motion of the lower control arm as it went through its range of motion! it fells way more solid and moves with greater precision now. I hope I didn't pull it too far forward, but it's not hard to adjust them at the alignment shop if needed.

I measured the torsion bars that were in there previously and they cam in just under .920". Anyone know if that is the small block size or is it the big block size? The new ones measure just over an inch with the coating on them.
 

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You do know that if you have subframe connectors it makes the job of fabbing the trans mount much much easier??

treblig

The way these specific subframe connectors are made, there is a gap between the subframe connector and the floor that's about 6 to 8" long. And it's right where an added crossmember would go. Here's a few pics showing the connection of the subframe to the torsion bar crossmember etc.
 

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It looks like there's plenty of room to attach the tranny cross member to your frame connectors. If you'll remember from my previous posts the 2004R tranny mount is only 4 1/2" inches further back than the stock cross member mount. From your pics it looks like there a solid section at least 6"-7" long before you get to the cut out. But it doesn't matter because you prefer the curved tube type cross member. If you do go that route I hope you realize that because the 2004R tranny mount is significantly lower than the factory mount you can't use a tube that is only bent in one axis. In other words, it will have to bent in the vertical axis as well as the horizontal axis. My tranny mount, like yours, will end up at a level just below the top of your pipes. So you can't come straight across, it's gotta drop down between the pipes. In my crude drawing the mount is actually lower (relative to the pipes) than where I drew it.
Of course your pipes my hang lower than mine so you never know. Check out my previous pics looking from the back of the driveshaft area and you'll see that the mounting surface on my home made tranny mount is pretty low relative to the factory one. Maybe you'll get lucky, you never know.

Please excuse the crude drawing....LOL!!1


Treblig
 

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Well I discovered something interesting while I was looking for a nice looking trans temp gage (at least one that would go with the cuda dash). Anyway, some gages only go to 250 degrees and some go up to 400 degrees. I know it's not good for tranny fluid to go above 275 or so from that chart I posted earlier. I'm running synthetic fluid so just out of curiosity I starting searching to see if synthetic can withstand more heat than regular trans fluid. Ran across this site where they were talking about different temperatures depending on where you mount the sender. Turns out if you mount it on the trans pan (drain plug) max in the sump is 285 degrees by GM standards (2004R, 700R4, etc). Now remember, this is for regular trans fluid (synthetic would be higher). But if you mount it at the pump output, in this case the upper fitting on the 2004R, then the max reading can be 350 degrees because the fluid from the pump is at it's hottest point.
All this makes a big difference!!!! If you mount it at the pump outlet then you'll need to buy a much more expensive gage because the ones that go to 360- 400 degrees are $100-$150 more. I don't care if the gage only costs $49 if it's a good brand and as long as it measures the range I need and there's no point in getting a super expensive gage if you can mount the sender in the pan. To make it even more interesting, if you do buy the more expensive gage to mount the sender to the output line you still have to spend another $30 on a manifold to tap into your trans line where the fluid leaves the pump.

So I'll just buy the 250 degree auto meter for $54 and mount my sender in the pan where I had installed a 1/8" drain pipe plug. Easy peasey, lemon squeezy!!

Hope your ready all this JBC426..........

Treblig
 
Your the man, you won't ever have to worry about overheated trans fluid. You'll feel slip way before you ever have any issues with a gauge. Your not towing a double-wide over the Rockies. Don't sweat it.
 
It looks like there's plenty of room to attach the tranny cross member to your frame connectors. If you'll remember from my previous posts the 2004R tranny mount is only 4 1/2" inches further back than the stock cross member mount. From your pics it looks like there a solid section at least 6"-7" long before you get to the cut out. But it doesn't matter because you prefer the curved tube type cross member. If you do go that route I hope you realize that because the 2004R tranny mount is significantly lower than the factory mount you can't use a tube that is only bent in one axis. In other words, it will have to bent in the vertical axis as well as the horizontal axis. My tranny mount, like yours, will end up at a level just below the top of your pipes. So you can't come straight across, it's gotta drop down between the pipes. In my crude drawing the mount is actually lower (relative to the pipes) than where I drew it.
Of course your pipes my hang lower than mine so you never know. Check out my previous pics looking from the back of the driveshaft area and you'll see that the mounting surface on my home made tranny mount is pretty low relative to the factory one. Maybe you'll get lucky, you never know.

Please excuse the crude drawing....LOL!!1


Treblig


More great info Treblig, and thanks for taking the time to draw out your ideas. I appreciate it. It looks like my exhaust hangs low enough to be out of the way enough to add an additional crossover for the motor mount. I'm wondering if it would be structurally worth while to have it bolt on at tabs welded not only at the subframe connectors, but also tabs where it could be bolted to the yet-to-be fabricated transmission reinforcement hump area where the cuts need to be made for clearance to fit the wider 200R4 as it passes through the stock factory crossmember? Your thoughts?

In other words, making the new crossmember tie into the added on structure that's needed to strengthen the area where the material is going to be removed from the torsion bar crossmember. In a sense, triangulating the two new add on structures. Any ideas on that approach?

On a somewhat related note, I've increased the load on the factory torsion bar mount even more this weekend.

I finished installing 1" Firm Feel torsion bars and put in a set of Hotchkis adjustable strut rods. I also boxed in the lower control arms, set the ride height and adjusted my Koni's all the way up to one click from max dampening to handle the stiffer spring rates both front and rear (the rear has two driver's side super stock springs with a 1" lowering block).

I then did a crude driveway alignment (set toe in to 1/8") and took the car for a spin. Wow, what a difference in ride, handling and tracking on the freeway. The spring rates feel almost perfectly balanced. The one inch front bars are nowhere near as stiff as I had heard for the street with this small block and 727 in the car. It corners a lot better now too. I'm going to wait to get a real alignment until after the new motor and trans are in. I used to only be able to get .5 degrees positive caster, even with the Firm Feel tubular upper control arms. It should be capable of getting to 3 degrees now without making my camber get out of spec.

The point of mentioning this suspension upgrade is to highlight the fact that the added strain these 1 inch bars will put into the crossmember will require some combination of strong reinforcing techniques at the crossmember so that the structural integrity of that part of the car is not compromised. I think it's within the realm of my capabilities thanks to many of the illustrations and information you've provided so well on your posts Treblig. Thanks for that!

I'm still not exactly sure what it will end up looking like, but it is going to have to be strong, decent looking, simple to reproduce and well thought out.
 

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Treblig, did you have to add one of those custom speedometer adapters to get your MPH to read accurately, or did you get lucky?
 
Treblig, did you have to add one of those custom speedometer adapters to get your MPH to read accurately, or did you get lucky?

To tell you the truth I got lucky because the speedo is only a little off. But since I'm going to change out my rear gears I'm not going to worry about it until after I swap out the gears. One good thing.....GM trans speedo gears are a dime a dozen and easy to find if you do need to change them.
With a little luck I'll change out the rear gears and the speedo will be dead on!!!
Treblig
 
Don't wanna be nosy, be sure to measure your tires from the center of the hub, to the ground, multiply by 2. Otherwise it'll throw your speedo calculations off.
 
Don't wanna be nosy, be sure to measure your tires from the center of the hub, to the ground, multiply by 2. Otherwise it'll throw your speedo calculations off.

You're only nosy if you choose NOT to help.

Thanks,Treblig
 
I picked up the recommended radiator fittings today along with a 25 foot roll of 5/16" tube and fittings. I got 4 sets of radiator to transmission cooler lines, so I can practice drilling, tapping and soldering. Thanks for the guidance on this Treblig!

OK, tonight after work, I drilled out the back side of the 5/16" female to 1/4" male fittings that would normally bolt right into a GM or Ford radiator cooler. I used a 5/16" drill and an 1/8" NPT tap. I stopped about 1/4" from drilling all the way through to the female flare. I also deburred the bigger hole with a larger drill by hand.

I then cleaned the parts with brake cleaner and blew them off good with compressed air. I screwed the 1/8" double sided male fitting that fits the Mopar transmission cooler, and silver soldered it with the real old fashioned quality silver solder.

The Treblig adapters and the factory 5/16" transmission fittings were all drilled out to the next drill size up in my drill index 15/64" or .234". They were all originally .220". This increased the inside diameter slightly, but didn't seem to affect the flares inside the fittings. I 'm confident the 5/16" flare nuts that I will put on the cooler lines will seal like normal, and I will get a bit of extra flow.

I include a picture that shows what the fittings currently look like in my car with the 5/16" lines and the stock Mopar 1/8" radiator cooler fittings.
 

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I picked up the recommended radiator fittings today along with a 25 foot roll of 5/16" tube and fittings. I got 4 sets of radiator to transmission cooler lines, so I can practice drilling, tapping and soldering. Thanks for the guidance on this Treblig!

Be very careful when you use the Tap drill. You have to keep checking to make sure you go deep enough but not too deep. If you go too deep you'll destroy the flare fitting surface on the other end of the fitting. If you go too shallow the tap will bottom out and you could accidently break it.

treblig
 
Be very careful when you use the Tap drill. You have to keep checking to make sure you go deep enough but not too deep. If you go too deep you'll destroy the flare fitting surface on the other end of the fitting. If you go too shallow the tap will bottom out and you could accidently break it.

treblig

Very true! I used a low drill speed and the drill still felt like it was just sucking into the fitting. It was hard to hold it back without using a drill press. I wrapped tape on the bit to help gauge the depth. I also bought a couple extra fittings in case I screwed up. I got lucky this time.
 
I was under the Barracuda today to install some angle shims under the differential and noticed that some of the drag link components were scraping against the new starter. I guess the position of the solenoid on the new starter is "clocked" differently than the old starter. It almost broke off the ear that one of the skinny starter bolts goes through. I though that I would let everyone know in case you may have the same problem if they use this set up. I ended up removing the cotter key and used a cut off wheel to trim the top of the bolt off (at a slight angle) so it would clear the starter.
It gouged the starter pretty good but it will survive!!
PS - Tomorrow I try to install the oval exhaust pipe to get more flow on the driver's side. I'll have more pics............
Treblig
 

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Treblig, did you have to add one of those custom speedometer adapters to get your MPH to read accurately, or did you get lucky?

I didn't want to play around with the gears in mine, so I went with all electric gauges and sending units. The 200R4 sender was a little expensive, but worth it.
 
I didn't want to play around with the gears in mine, so I went with all electric gauges and sending units. The 200R4 sender was a little expensive, but worth it.

Hey Mopar to ya!!! You weren't kidding about how nice the 2004R functions and drives. It's like gliding on ice (in a good way!!). It shifts really smooth normally, but when I stomp on it the shifts hit a little harder...just perfect. I haven't had a chance to put in my new gears. I have them there new in the box still. My current 308 gears burn the tires off as it is, and that's with 295 X 15 tires and brand new posi traction...amazing!! Anyway, thanks for all the help with your documentation on FABO. Since I used a different approach (installing with the engine in the car) I ran into different problems but the info and pics you posted helped tremendously. In fact the pics you posted allowed me to pre-fabricate the cross member and it worked perfect!! I only hope I help others as much!!!
Also the non lockup works flawlessly, I don't even know it's there. The only way I can tell is the "silent running" on the highway, no more "drowning noise" at 60 or 65 or 70 for that matter!! Right now my top end is somewhere around 195 MPH, LOL!! But that will change with the new lower gears.

thanks again,
Treblig
 
Well I believe that I finally completed the last item related to the 2004R install/swap. After the swap I found that the chevy/TCI ring gear was larger in diameter than the Mopar ring gear. This pushed the Mopar starter out towards the driver's side causing it to contact the exhaust pipe. I had to put some pretty large dents in the pipe to clear the starter but I knew it would effect exhaust flow. I later ordered some mandrel bent super tight radius 2 1/2" pipes to replace the old dented pipes and I completed the install today. I have some pics (first three pics) of the old pipe in place and some pics of the new pipe (2 1/2" super tight MANDREL radius pipes). Anyone who uses the 340 manifold in a '69 Barracuda with a 2004R will have the same problem of no room for LARGE exhaust pipes just below the manifold flange.
When I had taken the Cuda to the muffler shop last year (after I had installed the 340 manifold) I had asked them to use 2 1/2" pipe but as I found out this week they used 2 1/8" because there's no way they could have bent 2 1/2" pipe tight enough to make the curve above the starter, so they used smaller pipe. After I smashed the 2 1/8"pipe I knew it really hurt my exhaust flow so I ordered the super tight radius 2 1/2" and installed it myself. It came out very nice and I am very happy.

Treblig
 

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Thought I was done with this thread but as it turns out, I have more information for those who might use the 2004R in an a-body. I've been driving my car for well over a month now and have come to the realization that the transmission is shifting into 2 gear (and third gear) a little earlier than I like. Don't get me wrong, the car drives like a dream and shifts really nice and firm but I'd like it to stay in each gear a little longer. The gas mileage is out of this world!!!
After a few weeks of research I found that the 2004R governor controls the shift points based on RPM and load. You can buy a Grand National governor for around $200 but, if you know me, I'd rather do it myself. Anyway, I'll be posting the solution to this problem as I work it out. If you happened to already have a GN, or 442 or SS transmission you should be OK as those models came with a governor that will hold the WOT shift points above 4K. Most other regular 2004Rs shift out of first gear at a much lower RPM. But it looks like there's a very inexpensive way to solve the problem basically for free.
So just in case their are other members doing this swap I will document the modification of the standard, run of the mill governor.

Treblig
 
Ok, here's the deal....most 2004R transmissions come with the run of the mill governor which shifts out of 1st, 2nd and 3rd at a much lower RPM than us street guys like. The cars with the good governors are the Monte Carlo SS, GN and 442s. If you happen to get a regular 2004R you can modify the governor yourself basically for free if you know what to do. The trick is to do it before you get you tranny overhauled because you must remove the pan to get to the governor. In my case, I thought I would be happy with the standard governor but even though the tranny works great and gets tremendous gas mileage I would rather that it shift much later. All the high perf 2004Rs shift at 4800, 5500, 5800 RPM at WOT. That's not what I'm looking for but I would be happy with 3500-4000 at WOT. To accomplish this all you need to do is remove your governor or have a spare like I do. Actually I bought a spare 2004R for $27 and I plan to use the governor for my experiment. I can always put the governor out of my Barracuda back into the spare trans.
Once you have a governor that you can experiment with you look at the pics of the GN governor and disassemble yours and start cutting/grinding. These pics are just examples of a 2004R governors but don't show good pics of what and how much to trim. Once I remove the governor from my spare tranny I'll post some good pics of all the steps and the results.


A GN governor costs close to $200 and you can get rebuilt ones (modified) for less than $100. But why spend any money when you don't need to. Besides, you can actually tune your governor to your specifications. The more you trim the higher your shifts at WOT. So later this week I'll start this project.

treblig
 

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These are pics of the 2004R and the removal of the governor out of the spare transmission I purchased as a back up for the one I have in my '69 Barracuda. Also some pics of the 2004R pan, which is very distinct and once you see this pan you'll have no problem finding one for yourself. I also have pics of the bottom side of the tranny so you can see where the governor is located and how it is removed. Remember the governor controls when the transmission shifts from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. You simply remove the 4 bolts that hold the cover over the governor and tap it gently with a small hammer and it will come loose. Later I will disassemble the governor to modify it as promised. I'm limited on pics so to make sure you can follow along I will take it slow and show as many pics as possible so that you can do the same to your governor.

Treblig
 

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Then you disassemble the governor by removing the small wire clip just below the large skinny washer at the bottom of the shaft. Once the wire clip and the washer are removed it basically falls apart. In the last pic you can see the sliding pin that holds the weights in place. The pin fits loose in the holes and is held in place by the inside diameter of the yellow plastic driven gear. When you remove the plastic gear the sliding pin might just fall out on its' own. If the pin falls out the springs inside the weight might "spring" out and you won't know which spring goes where. Take care that you note which spring goes with which weight (it's important). More later..............

treblig
 

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After disassembly it will look like this (see first and second pics). Then you get your trusty magic marker and mark the areas that will be removed. The GN governor has no material in the areas marked with the brown marker. The large (heavy) weight controls the low speed shifts at part throttle and the small (light) weight controls shifts at high speeds. The more you remove off of these weights the higher you will get your normal (part throttle) shifts and the higher the shifts will be at WOT. Be careful because you could end up with WOT shifts over 6000 RPM and depending on your build you may not want that. Also the weight of the car and your rear end ratio may also affect these shift point so it's always best to remove "too little" as you can always remove more later. I'll be happy with 5000 WOT shifts and 1-2 and 2-3 (part throttle) shifts around 3000/3500.

Since I'm not looking for the full GN governor shifts I'll remove most of the brown marker leaving some for more adjustment later if I decide I want higher shifts. You can always remove more metal but unless you have a welder you can't put it back.

Treblig
 

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I trimmed both weights as you can see. I needed to get this done because I'm about to replace the 3.08 gears with 3.73s and from what I have read the lower gears will make the car shift even earlier than with the 3.08s and I don't want that. It seems that the 3.73s make the trans output shaft turn faster at all speeds forcing the weights out making the trans shift sooner. This is probably why the GNs and SS cars had the cut down version of governor weights as these cars also had lower gears. My 2004R shifts pretty good right now but once I install the lower gears the standard Olds governor will make the tranny shift too early.
As you can see I didn't remove all of the magic marker. Removing all of the magic marker would have made the weights exactly like the GN weights. I thought it might be too much. Until I see how it shifts with the 3.73s and this modified governor I can always remove more metal off the governor that's in the car now. I'm basically going to swap them out which will leave me with another standard governor to modify if the one in the pics is too heavy. There is no guide telling anyone how much to trim for a particular application. I believe it depends on curb weight, rear end ratio, trans modifications, valve body and governor weights/springs.
I've also read that the GN governor only uses one spring.
Treblig
 

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