Coolant flow

[72bluNblu]

I don’t have time to walk you through a tune up.

I’ll say it again. 180 should be the hottest these thing run. No more. If you want to run more compression drop the coolant temperature.

If you don’t think coolant temperature affects inlet air temperatures you are wrong. They do. That’s why air gap style manifolds work. But look at it. Coolant still goes through it.

A temp gun and some time on a dyno would show you a lot.

If you don’t have a QUALITY annular booster that’s the first place to start. Then emulsion and the main air bleed size.

That should get you started.

BTW, Uncle Tony dropped a video today. Watch that and learn exactly what NOT to do. He’s so far in the weeds on his thinking he won’t find his way out.


EDIT: The video I might make won’t be from text books and ****. It will be real world testing and results. I couldn’t care less what the long haired engineers say. If they say to run coolant temperatures over 180 they are crazy or they are obsessed with their carbon foot print. I’m not. I care about power and driveability. You get more of that with cooler engine temperatures.

Did I mention oil??? That matters too…

Uh-huh. Don't have time to explain it, won't bother to help, just grandstanding. Got it. You know best, everyone else is wrong, including the guys that are designing these engines at the OEM level. Sure. If you were onto something, every OEM would do it, your advice is very specific, dyno's and drag strips. It's not real world either.

I didn't say coolant temperatures and intake air temperatures were completely unrelated. I said that coolant temp was only a one part of a complicated system, and not the most important part. You keep oversimplifying this.

I don't have a race engine. Plenty of cars out there run just fine with Holley 750 double pumpers. The fact that your advice on coolant temperatures is tied directly to your carburetor tuning recommendations should be telling you your advice is not practical for everyone- it's good for its own niche, but applying it to everything is a massive oversimplification. There are a lot of factors that go into engine operating temperature.

It is my experience that people that dismiss out of hand what engineers have to say are people that simply don't understand what the engineers are saying. That is not to say engineers are always right, there are plenty of engineers that have gotten it wrong or get so into the weeds that they lose the real world application. But that doesn't mean that every machine shop owner knows better than the engineers that designed the engine, and you certainly don't.

Tech Talk #81 – Takin’ It to the Streets

Highlight from the article:

“Use a 160-degree thermostat to help the cooling system maintain control of the engine temperature. I know that most modern automobile engines run at well over 200 degrees, but that’s driven by emission regulations. It’s easier to maintain a reasonable coolant temperature than to regain control after the engine has overheated. The cooling system has a finite capacity to dissipate heat, so keeping the coolant as cold as possible provides a reserve when things start to get hot under the hood”

Read, research, test, make your choice. Done.

Again, this is wrongheaded. The thermostat only sets the bottom temperature for the system. Once the thermostat temperature is exceeded and the thermostat opens, it has nothing to do with the cooling system anymore. Obviously you can't set your coolant temp range below the temperature of the thermostat, but it doesn't contribute anything to keeping the engine cold beyond that.

The rest of it is a band aid for an insufficient cooling system. If the rest of your cooling system is up to par you shouldn't have to set your coolant temperature colder just so you can keep the car from overheating. Your cooling system should be able to maintain its set parameters. If it can't that's not a sign of cooling system insufficiency. I've have no issues keeping my car between the cut in/cut out temperatures I programmed my fan controller for, even with stuck in traffic on in 110° weather. And if I maintain any speed above about 25mph for more than a handful of minutes, my coolant temperatures drop below cut in.

This article just further shows that guys that build drag race engines are not the best people to ask about what works best on the street. While those guys may be awesome race engine builders, they're just detuning race engines for street use and maintaining the same approach of tuning for maximum power as the most important aspect. They're clearly not used to being able to put together an adequate cooling system. For a race engine that makes sense, for a street engine it's silly. Put together a better cooling system and you don't have to run cold just to prevent overheating.

Yes.

Fuel distribution.
Fuel vaporization.

While they look cool, that induction system has issues. One fix is increasing coolant temperature to help with those.

See, look, you do understand that there's actually more to it and a blanket "never get these engines hotter than 180°" is too dramatically oversimplified to be good advice for every build out there.

 

[72bluNblu]

Also, this bit about smog engines

"I know that most modern automobile engines run at well over 200 degrees, but that’s driven by emission regulations"

This isn't really completely accurate for truly modern engines. This is an opinion left over from when emissions standards got started, and it's actually backwards. The early smog engines, and we're talking 30 years ago now, started tuning for super hot exhaust temperatures to band-aid tailpipe emissions without really doing much else for the whole system. Heck most of those were still carbureted engines. And the exhaust temperature isn't controlled nearly as much by engine coolant temperature as the coolant temperature is effected by dramatically raising the exhaust temperatures. Look at some of the cooling systems on the F/M/J cars, they're not really any different at all than the A-bodies, but as you get into the late seventies there was air injection and all kinds of other stuff going on to raise exhaust temperatures. They had to tune the cars super lean, which raised temperatures, and inject air, which raised temperatures.

Modern engines with their all encompassing ECU's, fuel injection, variable timing, variable intakes, etc, etc, etc don't have to run a coolant temperature at 200° just to meet emissions standards. They're tuning more for efficiency, with also drives emissions. And if it was most efficient to run the engine at 160°, they would do it. And clearly you can still make a ton of horsepower and run at 200, it's not a mutually exclusive scenario.

That goes back to my original point- there are A LOT of ways to tune an engine, maximum horsepower is only one, and it's not best for every application. A Hellcat can punch out 807 hp and still run at 200°F, clearly there's more to the whole system than just emissions standards.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Uh-huh. Don't have time to explain it, won't bother to help, just grandstanding. Got it. You know best, everyone else is wrong, including the guys that are designing these engines at the OEM level. Sure. If you were onto something, every OEM would do it, your advice is very specific, dyno's and drag strips. It's not real world either.

I didn't say coolant temperatures and intake air temperatures were completely unrelated. I said that coolant temp was only a one part of a complicated system, and not the most important part. You keep oversimplifying this.

I don't have a race engine. Plenty of cars out there run just fine with Holley 750 double pumpers. The fact that your advice on coolant temperatures is tied directly to your carburetor tuning recommendations should be telling you your advice is not practical for everyone- it's good for its own niche, but applying it to everything is a massive oversimplification. There are a lot of factors that go into engine operating temperature.

It is my experience that people that dismiss out of hand what engineers have to say are people that simply don't understand what the engineers are saying. That is not to say engineers are always right, there are plenty of engineers that have gotten it wrong or get so into the weeds that they lose the real world application. But that doesn't mean that every machine shop owner knows better than the engineers that designed the engine, and you certainly don't.



Again, this is wrongheaded. The thermostat only sets the bottom temperature for the system. Once the thermostat temperature is exceeded and the thermostat opens, it has nothing to do with the cooling system anymore. Obviously you can't set your coolant temp range below the temperature of the thermostat, but it doesn't contribute anything to keeping the engine cold beyond that.

The rest of it is a band aid for an insufficient cooling system. If the rest of your cooling system is up to par you shouldn't have to set your coolant temperature colder just so you can keep the car from overheating. Your cooling system should be able to maintain its set parameters. If it can't that's not a sign of cooling system insufficiency. I've have no issues keeping my car between the cut in/cut out temperatures I programmed my fan controller for, even with stuck in traffic on in 110° weather. And if I maintain any speed above about 25mph for more than a handful of minutes, my coolant temperatures drop below cut in.

This article just further shows that guys that build drag race engines are not the best people to ask about what works best on the street. While those guys may be awesome race engine builders, they're just detuning race engines for street use and maintaining the same approach of tuning for maximum power as the most important aspect. They're clearly not used to being able to put together an adequate cooling system. For a race engine that makes sense, for a street engine it's silly. Put together a better cooling system and you don't have to run cold just to prevent overheating.



See, look, you do understand that there's actually more to it and a blanket "never get these engines hotter than 180°" is too dramatically oversimplified to be good advice for every build out there.

If I was going to use a 6 pack I would do the carbs and intake so I could run cooler temperatures. Chrysler took the easy way out (and cheaper way) to crutch a horrible (but money maker) package.

Im not bound by their rules and budgets.

As for me taking engineers out of hand (or whatever turn of phrase you used) I don’t. But I don’t swallow everything thing say as the be all, end all.

I get the thermodynamic part of it. As I said before and I say again, you can’t just make a blanket statement that all engines run good with hot coolant and all engines run poorly with cold(er) coolant.

Im saying that 180 is all the hotter they SHOULD be IF you give a **** about performance.

I offered to make a video but you said I don’t need to because the engineers have it nailed.

You are correct. I dont have the time to personally hand hold you through the process. Unless you want to pay me. And I still may not do it because you seem like the type who would argue continually, call every slap dick you know and some you don’t to arm yourself to argue and I don’t have time for that ****.

Ive already wasted more than enough time on this thread (and others) trying to get more people to understand that you don’t (and shouldn’t) need coolant temperatures over 180 and 160 if you like performance but it’s the same **** every time. The engineers say…the do it that way. I don’t give a single **** if you aren’t willing to learn that there may be a better way (there is) to do it. I’m not the only one saying or doing it.

Its 2023. This isn’t new. I learned this in the early 1980’s. And it still works today.

Make sure you never question your paradigms. That’s a sure way to never moving forward.

And for the record, I’m not talking about maximum horsepower. I’m talking about day to day driveabilty. You have the “race” and “max power” issue. That’s a YOU problem. I’m talking about STREET ******* CARS.

 

[1969383S]

My Gosh!

Trying to read all this makes me a bit nauseous. Heat is HP! And running to near 200 is just fine IMO!

Does your car boil over? If so you have issues!

If not, You are at the Peak of where you want to be! JMO!

 

[12many]

Who puts a cooling system together with the goal of running @ 200° or more? An Enthusiast actually says:
“I want my hot rod Mopar to run at or above 200°, Perfect!” Right.
All the discussion over the years here and elsewhere about engines running hot, wanting to lower the temps, talk of using quality 1”+ and up tube radiators, proper shrouds, unimpeded flow, mech/elec fans and cfm, pulley ratio, water pumps, thermostats, timing and afr, fully intending and desiring to run @ or above 200°? Can count them on one hand, with missing fingers. More the exception, not the rule. It really sounds like they ended up running at that temp, they wanted lower, only to convince themselves it’s fine as is but 200° was and is not the goal. 5-4-3-2........LOL

 

[72bluNblu]

If I was going to use a 6 pack I would do the carbs and intake so I could run cooler temperatures. Chrysler took the easy way out (and cheaper way) to crutch a horrible (but money maker) package.

Im not bound by their rules and budgets.

As for me taking engineers out of hand (or whatever turn of phrase you used) I don’t. But I don’t swallow everything thing say as the be all, end all.

I get the thermodynamic part of it. As I said before and I say again, you can’t just make a blanket statement that all engines run good with hot coolant and all engines run poorly with cold(er) coolant.

Im saying that 180 is all the hotter they SHOULD be IF you give a **** about performance.

I offered to make a video but you said I don’t need to because the engineers have it nailed.

You are correct. I dont have the time to personally hand hold you through the process. Unless you want to pay me. And I still may not do it because you seem like the type who would argue continually, call every slap dick you know and some you don’t to arm yourself to argue and I don’t have time for that ****.

Ive already wasted more than enough time on this thread (and others) trying to get more people to understand that you don’t (and shouldn’t) need coolant temperatures over 180 and 160 if you like performance but it’s the same **** every time. The engineers say…the do it that way. I don’t give a single **** if you aren’t willing to learn that there may be a better way (there is) to do it. I’m not the only one saying or doing it.

Its 2023. This isn’t new. I learned this in the early 1980’s. And it still works today.

Make sure you never question your paradigms. That’s a sure way to never moving forward.

So, you learned what you're preaching 30+ years ago, but I'm the one that won't learn? You're the one flipping out because someone is questioning you. All I've said is that a 160°-180° mandatory operating temperature isn't best for every build, and it's not. I've never even said that 190°-200° is best for maximum performance, just that some engines are built to operate that way. Heck I didn't even say it was best for everyone, because that's not true either. But what you're suggesting is only true for a small niche of engine builds.

I certainly don't need you to "hold my hand". I've been working on cars since before I could drive, which is over 3 decades now. I definitely don't know everything (neither do you), and what works "in theory" and in the real world can be different, that's true. But you're the one that says things like "I bet I could make 5 pretty simple changes and you’d make more power and it would run better at 160." That's a direct quote, by the way, you said it. But when I ask what those changes would be, well, crickets, every single time. If it's so simple, I'd bet you could tell me those changes in FAR less time than you've spent arguing with me here. Because this isn't the first time.

But you'd rather grandstand than actually explain, and rather call names than help. Maybe the way you build engines works best with a 160° operating temperature, but you didn't build every engine out there, and what you're pushing isn't true for every engine out there. Your tuning advice caters to a very narrow niche of engines. That's been my point all along. Every time you're pressed, you add more requirements to being able to run best at those temperatures.

If what you claim is so easy and so obvious, shoot me a PM, ask the questions about my build you need to know, and give your response when I give you that info. I have all the info you'd need. You've spent way more time calling me names than it would take to do that. If you're that sure you're right put your money where your mouth is. If I can make those changes without spending thousands of dollars I'll make them, and if you're right I'll have no problem saying that. You keep saying I'm the one that won't learn, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Who puts a cooling system together with the goal of running 200°? Enthusiast says:
“I want my hot rod Mopar to run at 200°!” Right.
All the discussion over the years here and elsewhere about running hot, lowering the temps, about using quality 1”+ core tube radiators, proper shrouds, unimpeded flow, mech/elec fans and cfm, pulley ratio, water pumps, thermostats, timing and afr, fully intending and desiring to run 200°? Can count them on one hand, with missing fingers. Exception, not the rule. Sounds more like that’s what they ended up running at only convincing themselves it’s perfectly fine, but 200° was and is not the goal. Here come the literalists and contrarians LOL

View attachment 1716089231

View attachment 1716089274

View attachment 1716089275

Yeah, yeah, gaslight, gaslight, blah blah. I'm a literalist and a contrarian because I don't agree with you. Sure.

Chrysler spends a crap ton of money, time and research to build cooling systems for the GenIII to run at 200°. They put way more time and effort into doing that than anybody on this board, and have more experience and knowledge doing it too. And I dunno about you, but 700-800 hp out of a 6.2L engine anybody can easily drive on the street is pretty good performance and drivability. So, yeah, the OEM's put together cooling systems with the goal of running 200° everyday, and spent millions to do it. And don't give me that smog engine nonsense, because with the current ECU's, fuel injection, ECU controlled timing, new catalytic converters etc those engines could be tuned to pass smog running a 180° operating temp IF that was best for those builds.

Most of the threads on here are about "how not to overheat". Cars with issues, not being able to maintain any temperature in normal conditions. And then the old drag racers chime in and say how everything over 160° is dumb. And they go fast, so everyone thinks that's the only way.

As I explained before, my cooling system is more than capable of maintaining 180°, I've run it that way. The drivability of my car at or below that temperature is not as good as it is at 200°, which my cooling system also has no issue maintaining. And no, I didn't notice any big drop off in performance either. Maybe there is some flaw in my engine build or tune that is causing that, I've never claimed my build or tune was perfect. Quite the opposite, I'm sure it's not.

These cars ran at 190°+ from the factory. They were fine that way for decades. Modern cars run that way and do it for hundreds of thousands of miles. If you're not running the razor's edge on detonation and tuning for a dyno, you don't need to be at 160°. Or even 180°. But the all the guys that "know best" say that's the way it has to be for everyone, which is also why we have dozens of threads with guys saying their car runs "hot" when it fact it's just running at the temperature the factory intended.

Well, that and people not understanding pulley ratio's, high output water pumps, or how many CFM's of air their fan has to realistically move to cool their car. Because most of the threads I've seen with actual cooling issues are just mismatched components.

 

[George Jets]

Heat travels to lesser heat.

Try standing outside on a 10° day. The 98.6° heat in your body will easily move to the outside air temp of 10° (F).

Now try standing Outside on a 90° day. Any body heat over your 98.6° body temp is going to have a hard time excaping from your body.

This is a overheating situation, same applies to cars.....

☆☆☆☆☆

 

[72bluNblu]

Heat travels to lesser heat.

Try standing outside on a 10° day. The 98.6° heat in your body will easily move to the outside air temp of 10° (F).

Now try standing Outside on a 90° day. Any body heat over your 98.6° body temp is going to have a hard time excaping from your body.

This is a overheating situation, same applies to cars.....

View attachment 1716089360

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Yes, that is true. Energy always moves across a gradient to the body with less energy. If it’s hotter than 98.6° out, you’re not shedding energy, you’re absorbing it. But the rate of exchange is the issue here.

The rate of exchange difference between a coolant temperature 180° and 200° is pretty darn small. And in this case all we’re really talking about is the difference in the exchange rate between those temperatures. That also gets into how fast water is traveling through the system. As long as there is a difference in the temperature of the coolant and the temperature of block the coolant will absorb energy, that goes back to the first article posted in this thread in dispelling the “time in the radiator” myth.

Bottom line is that the cooling systems for these cars should be able to maintain a coolant temperature of 200°. Mine does. If the coolant temperature has to be 160° for the car not to overheat, the cooling system is not up to par.

 

[toolmanmike]

I don't see what the big deal is. If your car (race car or street car) runs better at 160° then run it there. If it runs better at 180° with no issues, run it there. If you want to run it with a 195° thermostat and it doesn't detonate,vapor lock, or overheat, go for it.

 

[George Jets]

I don't see what the big deal is. If your car (race car or street car) runs better at 160° then run it there. If it runs better at 180° with no issues, run it there. If you want to run it with a 195° thermostat and it doesn't detonate,vapor lock, or overheat, go for it.

Lol . . . Thumbs Up !

☆☆☆☆☆

 

[12many]

Hey 72bluNblu, lighten up man. You have good and valuable input here and have a record here that shows that I think most would agree. I don’t believe I ever commented that you were wrong as it applies to the applications you mention? I’ll have to go back and reread this thread to see if I did. A little of this perhaps. I can’t help myself in some cases, must have triggered me, fingers get carried away, my bad.

And then the old drag racers chime in and say how everything over 160° is dumb. And they go fast, so everyone thinks that's the only way

^^^^This quote and others like it is where I have a problem. I don’t think I ever referred to anything besides my opinion as “dumb” or wrong (I can be opinionated just like anyone else) and I’m not an old drag racer chiming in either.
I’m a street/strip guy that’s gotten back into the hobby after a long hiatus. I’ve dealt with Mopar cooling issues since 1983. Daily drivers, performance street rides, pu’s and street/strip Mopars. I have 6 vehicles currently that are in all those above applications I just mentioned. In this particular thread my angle is street/strip and strip. I work on my van tuning to improve every area of ET and MPH period. Everything. To go faster and quicker, AND still retain some Street ability.

I don’t hang here to make enemies or fight battles. As much as I hate the phrase...but, It’s all good on my end.

 

[George Jets]

I think if Rat and I met in a local bar, I think we would be friends laughing it all off.

Carrying on the passion of the hobby and hot rod cars we all have experienced.

I always say: if you have a part that someone else needs, you have to give it up for the greater good.

It's not about me, it's about the next people coming up the line.

10 - 4

☆☆☆☆☆

 

[Rat Bastid]

I think if Rat and I met in a local bar, I think we would be friends laughing it all off.

Carrying on the passion of the hobby and hot rod cars we all have experienced.

I always say: if you have a part that someone else needs, you have to give it up for the greater good.

It's not about me, it's about the next people coming up the line.

10 - 4

☆☆☆☆☆

No, we would not.

 

[George Jets]

No, we would not.

Lol . . .

 

[RustyRatRod]

No, we would not.

Ouch.

 

[Rat Bastid]

So, you learned what you're preaching 30+ years ago, but I'm the one that won't learn? You're the one flipping out because someone is questioning you. All I've said is that a 160°-180° mandatory operating temperature isn't best for every build, and it's not. I've never even said that 190°-200° is best for maximum performance, just that some engines are built to operate that way. Heck I didn't even say it was best for everyone, because that's not true either. But what you're suggesting is only true for a small niche of engine builds.

I certainly don't need you to "hold my hand". I've been working on cars since before I could drive, which is over 3 decades now. I definitely don't know everything (neither do you), and what works "in theory" and in the real world can be different, that's true. But you're the one that says things like "I bet I could make 5 pretty simple changes and you’d make more power and it would run better at 160." That's a direct quote, by the way, you said it. But when I ask what those changes would be, well, crickets, every single time. If it's so simple, I'd bet you could tell me those changes in FAR less time than you've spent arguing with me here. Because this isn't the first time.

But you'd rather grandstand than actually explain, and rather call names than help. Maybe the way you build engines works best with a 160° operating temperature, but you didn't build every engine out there, and what you're pushing isn't true for every engine out there. Your tuning advice caters to a very narrow niche of engines. That's been my point all along. Every time you're pressed, you add more requirements to being able to run best at those temperatures.

If what you claim is so easy and so obvious, shoot me a PM, ask the questions about my build you need to know, and give your response when I give you that info. I have all the info you'd need. You've spent way more time calling me names than it would take to do that. If you're that sure you're right put your money where your mouth is. If I can make those changes without spending thousands of dollars I'll make them, and if you're right I'll have no problem saying that. You keep saying I'm the one that won't learn, but nothing could be further from the truth.



Yeah, yeah, gaslight, gaslight, blah blah. I'm a literalist and a contrarian because I don't agree with you. Sure.

Chrysler spends a crap ton of money, time and research to build cooling systems for the GenIII to run at 200°. They put way more time and effort into doing that than anybody on this board, and have more experience and knowledge doing it too. And I dunno about you, but 700-800 hp out of a 6.2L engine anybody can easily drive on the street is pretty good performance and drivability. So, yeah, the OEM's put together cooling systems with the goal of running 200° everyday, and spent millions to do it. And don't give me that smog engine nonsense, because with the current ECU's, fuel injection, ECU controlled timing, new catalytic converters etc those engines could be tuned to pass smog running a 180° operating temp IF that was best for those builds.

Most of the threads on here are about "how not to overheat". Cars with issues, not being able to maintain any temperature in normal conditions. And then the old drag racers chime in and say how everything over 160° is dumb. And they go fast, so everyone thinks that's the only way.

As I explained before, my cooling system is more than capable of maintaining 180°, I've run it that way. The drivability of my car at or below that temperature is not as good as it is at 200°, which my cooling system also has no issue maintaining. And no, I didn't notice any big drop off in performance either. Maybe there is some flaw in my engine build or tune that is causing that, I've never claimed my build or tune was perfect. Quite the opposite, I'm sure it's not.

These cars ran at 190°+ from the factory. They were fine that way for decades. Modern cars run that way and do it for hundreds of thousands of miles. If you're not running the razor's edge on detonation and tuning for a dyno, you don't need to be at 160°. Or even 180°. But the all the guys that "know best" say that's the way it has to be for everyone, which is also why we have dozens of threads with guys saying their car runs "hot" when it fact it's just running at the temperature the factory intended.

Well, that and people not understanding pulley ratio's, high output water pumps, or how many CFM's of air their fan has to realistically move to cool their car. Because most of the threads I've seen with actual cooling issues are just mismatched components.

I have been doing and PROVING cooler engine temperatures make more power and run better. I learn new things every day, and I prove things out every day.


Early on, I gave two opposing examples of coolant temperatures for STREET DRIVEN CARS. Evidently you skim over what I write to try and make your points (I do that occasionally so that is what it is).

Once example was Pro Stock (and some other eliminators) where they CHILL the engines down to very cold temperatures and when they finish a pass they are 120 degrees or less. Does it make more power? Hell yes, or they wouldn‘t do it. Does it make sense for a bracket car? Not even close. You don’t have time to chill the engine between rounds and you have to tow to the starting line and tow it back. That’s a royal PITA. So CHILLING an engine for most isn’t feasible. That doesn’t change the FACT that they would make more power. It in fact PROVES out the FACT that cooler engine temperatures make more power.

The other example I used was NASCAR Cup type engines. They are the other extreme. In order to run all day at WOT (or near WOT and certainly running the vast majority of the time at or above peak torque) and keep the engine temperature at say…180 it would be incredibly difficult to build a cooling system to dissipate that kind of heat for that long (and dealing with ambient temperatures at the track surface that can be 120 degrees or more) just due to the size of the equipment.

And to fit that HUGE heat exchanger (radiator) and the associated parts would absolutely KILL any aero package to the point the car wouldn’t be competitive. Not even close. So fitting the cooling system in the car AND not compromising the aero package (or limiting the compromise as best as can be done) is what matters.

So they deal with higher than optimal coolant temperatures and give up some power in order to gain (a big gain) in aerodynamics. It’s that simple really.

What we are discussing falls between those two extremes.

What the OEM does for coolant temperatures has ZERO to do with HORSEPOWER and has everything to do with fitting a cooling system in their box (chassis) and meeting ever increasing bullshit emissions standards. If they give up 30, 40 or even 50 horsepower they don’t give a **** because they know that 98% of what they sell will NEVER see WOT.

Claiming that the “new” Hemi has X coolant temperatures and extrapolating that to the discussion here is silly at best. What the OEM’s do (and the regulations they have to deal with) doesn’t affect what we do here.

You can continue to argue for hotter coolant temperatures. I’m sure you will. But the evidence and PROOF is on my side.

Its sad you expect me to hold your hand and walk you through it.

If I do produce a video (probably 5 or 6 of them so its not one long video) you wouldn’t watch it anyway.

I have made several short videos of why to NOT lock out a distributor and guys STILL argue for that stupidity.

It’s the same with coolant temperatures, power valve timing, vacuum advance use and a host of other myths that have been perpetuated along by ignorance and sometimes malice.

 

[George Jets]

Guess I need a library card so I can read the book.

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[72bluNblu]

I don't see what the big deal is. If your car (race car or street car) runs better at 160° then run it there. If it runs better at 180° with no issues, run it there. If you want to run it with a 195° thermostat and it doesn't detonate,vapor lock, or overheat, go for it.

100%.

Hey 72bluNblu, lighten up man. You have good and valuable input here and have a record here that shows that I think most would agree. I don’t believe I ever commented that you were wrong as it applies to the applications you mention? I’ll have to go back and reread this thread to see if I did. A little of this perhaps. I can’t help myself in some cases, must have triggered me, fingers get carried away, my bad.

^^^^This quote and others like it is where I have a problem. I don’t think I ever referred to anything besides my opinion as “dumb” or wrong (I can be opinionated just like anyone else) and I’m not an old drag racer chiming in either.
I’m a street/strip guy that’s gotten back into the hobby after a long hiatus. I’ve dealt with Mopar cooling issues since 1983. Daily drivers, performance street rides, pu’s and street/strip Mopars. I have 6 vehicles currently that are in all those above applications I just mentioned. In this particular thread my angle is street/strip and strip. I work on my van tuning to improve every area of ET and MPH period. Everything. To go faster and quicker, AND still retain some Street ability.

I don’t hang here to make enemies or fight battles. As much as I hate the phrase...but, It’s all good on my end.

If you feel like collateral damage, I understand. You may not have said "anything besides your opinion is dumb", but, folks in this thread have definitely said worse. So I get it, you may have gotten lumped in a bit.

My point in all of this is that application absolutely matters. What you would do for a pro stock car, for a strip only car, for a street/strip car, and for a commuter are all different things.

I've been driving classics my entire life. I daily drove a '56 Austin Healey 100 for years, so, I've dealt with cooling issues. My focus has always been street driving and lots of it, with autoX and road course work on the side. And yeah, those tunes are different than street/strip, and different again than strip only cars.

I have been doing and PROVING cooler engine temperatures make more power and run better. I learn new things every day, and I prove things out every day.

To be polite, you can't prove anything without providing evidence. You have provided ZERO evidence. None. So let's see all those dyno pulls with the same engine at different temperatures and tunes. And then let's see the videos of it on the street with those different tunes to prove the driveabilty stayed the same. That's proof. Yes, colder air charges make more power- that's the theory. When you've been driving for an hour in stop and go traffic and it's 100°+ out, that theory doesn't mean much. Application matters.

Early on, I gave two opposing examples of coolant temperatures for STREET DRIVEN CARS. Evidently you skim over what I write to try and make your points (I do that occasionally so that is what it is).

Once example was Pro Stock (and some other eliminators) where they CHILL the engines down to very cold temperatures and when they finish a pass they are 120 degrees or less. Does it make more power? Hell yes, or they wouldn‘t do it. Does it make sense for a bracket car? Not even close. You don’t have time to chill the engine between rounds and you have to tow to the starting line and tow it back. That’s a royal PITA. So CHILLING an engine for most isn’t feasible. That doesn’t change the FACT that they would make more power. It in fact PROVES out the FACT that cooler engine temperatures make more power.

And yet, it also shows that application matters. Pro Stock has nothing to do with being a real street car either. Yeah, Pro-Stock runs at 100-120°, they chill their intakes, the whole bit. It's also racing where a thousandth of a second could make a difference, that's splitting it mighty fine. They also run 118 octane fuel, and how many miles do they go between engine tear downs? I thought we were talking about street cars? You're just showing all your reasoning is based on drag racing.

The other example I used was NASCAR Cup type engines. They are the other extreme. In order to run all day at WOT (or near WOT and certainly running the vast majority of the time at or above peak torque) and keep the engine temperature at say…180 it would be incredibly difficult to build a cooling system to dissipate that kind of heat for that long (and dealing with ambient temperatures at the track surface that can be 120 degrees or more) just due to the size of the equipment.

And to fit that HUGE heat exchanger (radiator) and the associated parts would absolutely KILL any aero package to the point the car wouldn’t be competitive. Not even close. So fitting the cooling system in the car AND not compromising the aero package (or limiting the compromise as best as can be done) is what matters.

So they deal with higher than optimal coolant temperatures and give up some power in order to gain (a big gain) in aerodynamics. It’s that simple really.

Yes, NASCAR runs their coolant around 300° because aerodynamics are the most important thing for them. They also manage to make plenty of horsepower that way, and tune accordingly. Kinda been my whole point, application matters.

And again, they tear their engines down every how many miles? And the street drivability is what now? Non existent.

What we are discussing falls between those two extremes.

Not really. Neither of your examples are cars that see one second of street time, and on the long end get a full engine teardown every 500 miles? Outside of being internal combustion engines, they're about as different as can be. And the rules of those classes dictate most of what those guys do. Time between races, aero requirements and standards, engine requirements and standards, etc, etc.

What the OEM does for coolant temperatures has ZERO to do with HORSEPOWER and has everything to do with fitting a cooling system in their box (chassis) and meeting ever increasing bullshit emissions standards. If they give up 30, 40 or even 50 horsepower they don’t give a **** because they know that 98% of what they sell will NEVER see WOT.

Claiming that the “new” Hemi has X coolant temperatures and extrapolating that to the discussion here is silly at best. What the OEM’s do (and the regulations they have to deal with) doesn’t affect what we do here.

Funny you think using NASCAR and Pro-Stock as examples are relevant, but an OEM engine that makes 700-800 hp and can be driven for 100k+ miles is somehow not. Neither of your examples are streetable in the least. But an 800 hp car you can drive off the lot and take grocery shopping? Yeah, that's relevant. And if Chrysler could run another 50 hp, it WOULD matter. Just like blaming it on emissions is a cop out, those ECU's and those cooling systems could absolutely run those cars colder than 200° and still pass everything exactly as they're built.

You can continue to argue for hotter coolant temperatures. I’m sure you will. But the evidence and PROOF is on my side.

Then let's see it. You haven't posted one thing that could be called evidence yet. Post your dyno pulls with your irrefutable evidence. You need data to provide proof, not just anecdotal stories.

Its sad you expect me to hold your hand and walk you through it.

If I do produce a video (probably 5 or 6 of them so its not one long video) you wouldn’t watch it anyway.

I have made several short videos of why to NOT lock out a distributor and guys STILL argue for that stupidity.

It’s the same with coolant temperatures, power valve timing, vacuum advance use and a host of other myths that have been perpetuated along by ignorance and sometimes malice.

Oh please. I don't expect you to do anything. You're the one that said it would be so easy to "fix" my car and make more power AND have better drivability. All I asked was "how" and you deliver a ration of crap. Which is what I expected, because none of this is new for you. You do the same thing every time, and every time you fail to deliver the "how".

You keep saying how simple this is, then won't explain it because it would take too long? What happened to "5 simple things"? If you're so sure you already know 5 things that would prove you right and make my car run colder and drive better too, just PM me. If you already know, it would take a lot less time than your last post did.

 

[Bewy]

You guys think cooling is simple? Just as an example: line up all the V8 blocks, Ford. Chry, Chev, Pont, AMC etc. All sizes. See if you can find two the same that have the same number of coolant holes & in the same location & the same size.....
That tells me the engineers had different opinions & probably did lots of testing...& the final outcome was...they could not agree....as evidenced by the fact that every engine has a different coolant flow layout.

 

[dirty white boy]

off topic but, a big truck with 400 cummins has a 1800 ci radiator and a fan bout 3 foot tall with a good shrould and 180 degree stat, grossing 100,000 lbs climbing a 20 mile grade at 6% dosent have a issue keeping coolant cool, its the pyrometer a driver watches, them egt's! if it gets over 1200 degrees them aluminum pistons become hot molting liquid and will blow out of exhaust and speckle the nose of the trailer if driver dont down shift, get turbo to spooling and pump some air threw the heads and cool off the egt's! now none of this has damn thing to do with cooling a old car, new car, drag car, nascar or a flipping space ship! but its was more entertaining and educational than pages and pages of post from grown men arguing like a group of 4th graders! ive seen good websites die on account of such and id hate to watch that happen to Abodys! theres always more than one way to skin a cat! there can be 2 ways thats right! there can be wrong ways that some how work when it shouldnt! but going back and forth for days that ya right or anothers wrong ant helping nobody but the folks that sale blood pressure meds,...dwb!

 

[SixPaksRule]

This is too much fun
The rat has a lot of hot air coming out of the radiator - hopefully the soap box breaks soon. Video? lol Cartoon at best. Stop being a bully.

If I was going to use a 6 pack I would do the carbs and intake so I could run cooler temperatures. Chrysler took the easy way out (and cheaper way) to crutch a horrible (but money maker) package.
Pure BS....

That horrible package will beat up a 4bbl equivalent all day long when tuned properly. I have driven/tuned more six paks cars than most. 1 six pak car - 100,000 miles, several engines - the last engine was very wicked...195 degrees. I am still tuning six pak and other cars and very good at it. I will put my tuning skills up against the big mouth rat any day.

All mopar STREET engines of the 60-70-80's esp Six paks do not tune properly at 180 degrees - it's been this way since i started working six paks in the late 70's. Speaking of dynos we had a 505 alum head roller six pak on the dyno at 195 degrees and 625 hp. After getting it run in/tested/tuned we tried tuning for 180 because the dyno guy was ignorant and we wanted to see what happened - we could not get the engine run and make the hp as the a-f ratio was bouncing like soccer ball in play. How much hp is lost without the breather and what happens to a/f when run without it? I know but I'm not sharing further info because this not a technical discussion any more.

Today we have modern instrumentation to know exactly what's going on under the hood - the air fuel & temperature data proves him wrong - period. Rat has not paraded out his technology to prove his old school drag racing knowlege. Temperatures....hmmm there are a number of temps check when tuning besides hot air from rats and the rad temps.

I have a serious bad boy [street car] currently in the shop that runs high speed road course laps really well on full tread that will not run correctly at 180 no matter how it is set up. At 195 it runs very nice crisp against the thermostat with only a 22 inch radiator and the proper mopar fan arrangement. Bring it on Rat....

 

[lead69]

 

[cosgig]

This is too much fun
The rat has a lot of hot air coming out of the radiator - hopefully the soap box breaks soon. Video? lol Cartoon at best. Stop being a bully.

If I was going to use a 6 pack I would do the carbs and intake so I could run cooler temperatures. Chrysler took the easy way out (and cheaper way) to crutch a horrible (but money maker) package.
Pure BS....

That horrible package will beat up a 4bbl equivalent all day long when tuned properly. I have driven/tuned more six paks cars than most. 1 six pak car - 100,000 miles, several engines - the last engine was very wicked...195 degrees. I am still tuning six pak and other cars and very good at it. I will put my tuning skills up against the big mouth rat any day.

All mopar STREET engines of the 60-70-80's esp Six paks do not tune properly at 180 degrees - it's been this way since i started working six paks in the late 70's. Speaking of dynos we had a 505 alum head roller six pak on the dyno at 195 degrees and 625 hp. After getting it run in/tested/tuned we tried tuning for 180 because the dyno guy was ignorant and we wanted to see what happened - we could not get the engine run and make the hp as the a-f ratio was bouncing like soccer ball in play. How much hp is lost without the breather and what happens to a/f when run without it? I know but I'm not sharing further info because this not a technical discussion any more.

Today we have modern instrumentation to know exactly what's going on under the hood - the air fuel & temperature data proves him wrong - period. Rat has not paraded out his technology to prove his old school drag racing knowlege. Temperatures....hmmm there are a number of temps check when tuning besides hot air from rats and the rad temps.

I have a serious bad boy [street car] currently in the shop that runs high speed road course laps really well on full tread that will not run correctly at 180 no matter how it is set up. At 195 it runs very nice crisp against the thermostat with only a 22 inch radiator and the proper mopar fan arrangement. Bring it on Rat....

Can I come over and play cars with you, please?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Like I've said all along, just run what works for you. It's not that difficult.

 

[Rat Bastid]

100%.



If you feel like collateral damage, I understand. You may not have said "anything besides your opinion is dumb", but, folks in this thread have definitely said worse. So I get it, you may have gotten lumped in a bit.

My point in all of this is that application absolutely matters. What you would do for a pro stock car, for a strip only car, for a street/strip car, and for a commuter are all different things.

I've been driving classics my entire life. I daily drove a '56 Austin Healey 100 for years, so, I've dealt with cooling issues. My focus has always been street driving and lots of it, with autoX and road course work on the side. And yeah, those tunes are different than street/strip, and different again than strip only cars.



To be polite, you can't prove anything without providing evidence. You have provided ZERO evidence. None. So let's see all those dyno pulls with the same engine at different temperatures and tunes. And then let's see the videos of it on the street with those different tunes to prove the driveabilty stayed the same. That's proof. Yes, colder air charges make more power- that's the theory. When you've been driving for an hour in stop and go traffic and it's 100°+ out, that theory doesn't mean much. Application matters.



And yet, it also shows that application matters. Pro Stock has nothing to do with being a real street car either. Yeah, Pro-Stock runs at 100-120°, they chill their intakes, the whole bit. It's also racing where a thousandth of a second could make a difference, that's splitting it mighty fine. They also run 118 octane fuel, and how many miles do they go between engine tear downs? I thought we were talking about street cars? You're just showing all your reasoning is based on drag racing.



Yes, NASCAR runs their coolant around 300° because aerodynamics are the most important thing for them. They also manage to make plenty of horsepower that way, and tune accordingly. Kinda been my whole point, application matters.

And again, they tear their engines down every how many miles? And the street drivability is what now? Non existent.



Not really. Neither of your examples are cars that see one second of street time, and on the long end get a full engine teardown every 500 miles? Outside of being internal combustion engines, they're about as different as can be. And the rules of those classes dictate most of what those guys do. Time between races, aero requirements and standards, engine requirements and standards, etc, etc.



Funny you think using NASCAR and Pro-Stock as examples are relevant, but an OEM engine that makes 700-800 hp and can be driven for 100k+ miles is somehow not. Neither of your examples are streetable in the least. But an 800 hp car you can drive off the lot and take grocery shopping? Yeah, that's relevant. And if Chrysler could run another 50 hp, it WOULD matter. Just like blaming it on emissions is a cop out, those ECU's and those cooling systems could absolutely run those cars colder than 200° and still pass everything exactly as they're built.



Then let's see it. You haven't posted one thing that could be called evidence yet. Post your dyno pulls with your irrefutable evidence. You need data to provide proof, not just anecdotal stories.



Oh please. I don't expect you to do anything. You're the one that said it would be so easy to "fix" my car and make more power AND have better drivability. All I asked was "how" and you deliver a ration of crap. Which is what I expected, because none of this is new for you. You do the same thing every time, and every time you fail to deliver the "how".

You keep saying how simple this is, then won't explain it because it would take too long? What happened to "5 simple things"? If you're so sure you already know 5 things that would prove you right and make my car run colder and drive better too, just PM me. If you already know, it would take a lot less time than your last post did.

Go do some research. Youtube is FULL of coolant temperature tests. Go watch them.


Once again, the OE‘s have to deal with emissions and I don’t.

From here on out keep doing what you do. You refuse to learn.

I just had this discussion with a very smart man and his line was the same as yours. And that is the OEM’s and circle track guys run hot coolant so they know what the **** they are doing and the rest of us are stupid.


Then I asked him the exact same question I’m going to ask you. Let’s see how YOU do.

If Pro Stock chills their engines (they are nowhere near 100 degrees…I hear 70 and at the end of a run it’s 100ish) because they KNOW it makes more power that makes them stupid. Why wouldn’t they look at circle track **** and HEAT their engines??? Are they THAT a stupid?

The reason they don’t is because they make LESS HORSEPOWER the higher the coolant temperatures go up. Simple as that.

No way can you put a cooling system big enough on a NASCAR car and not kill it with weight and kill the aero package.

So the issue IS they can’t get the temperature down that far and do it for 500 miles without making huge compromises. Deal with it.

Like I said, about 160 is as low as I go so I can get a defrost. 180 is as high as I like to see. It kills power, makes the tune up window narrower and causes the same engine with the same compression ratio to use a fuel with higher octane to keep it out of detonation.

I will not test a pump gas engine higher that 160, maybe 165. No reason to.

So jerk your engine out, drive up here and I’ll test your **** at 200 and we’ll see what it does. I won’t even charge you.

If that doesn’t work for you too ******* bad. You have no proof of what you can do. I have lots of engines out there running 160ish. You just can’t accept the fact that it doesn’t fit your pradigm.