I think my 727 is fried. Now I'm at a crossroads...

[Swinger 340]

My next question is how do I check the pump to see if it is bad? I'll replace the seal regardless, if I pull the transmission out. I think it makes sense since it's easy and cheap.

Being you only played with the oil pan, is it possible someone played with the TQ converter drain plug? When there is a problem sometimes, look back on what you may of did or not do. Also, I have seen TQ converters crack at the bolt blocks connecting the fly wheel or pressor plate. Sometimes, even they will crack, which will cause a front seal leak by vibration.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Being you only played with the oil pan, is it possible someone played with the TQ converter drain plug? When there is a problem sometimes, look back on what you may of did or not do. Also, I have seen TQ converters crack at the bolt blocks connecting the fly wheel or pressor plate. Sometimes, even they will crack, which will cause a front seal leak by vibration.

Not a finger was laid on the torque converter (or the transmission, for that matter.) I’ve seen this leak before on this car, but it always went away on its own. I thought it may have been because the trans was overfilled and it was coming out through the weep hole, but now I’m thinking the leak may have been a warning sign of something about to fail.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Hang on man, you may just have aerated the fluid with TOO MUCH oil in it.
If the fluid is not blackened and stinky;
I would check the calibration on the dipstick, run a deep pan with a filter extension, and drop the oil level until it is well below the sunshell. Then roadtest it.
Oh yeah, make sure the cooler lines are not kinked, lol.

Obviously if the fluid is dark and stinky, I would drop it out first. If it comes back slipping again, well, you tried.

The talk about building the engine differently for a manual trans is more than just talk.... But on a low-performance effort is not a big deal.

 

[Righty Tighty]

The fluid is crystal clear, red, and not stinky. I'm just very worried at why it was pouring out like that, all the way until the transmission was near dry. This leak has happened before, but as mentioned previously, it always seemed to resolve itself somehow.

 

[AJ/FormS]

all the more reason to suspect aeration
With the transmission installed, it is a lil difficult to pressure test the case. And since Chrysler put the stinking vent almost right above the input seal, that can make the diagnostic a lil tough too. But I must say, those front seals last several hundred thousand miles.
you can prove the servos and clutches with an air pressure test, but in your case I doubt you would learn anything more than you already know, with your description of the oil.
Honestly; Ima thinking aerated oil
or the pump is sucking air.
A deep pan may solve both problems.

 

[j par]

When I did the 904, I let the transmission guy do the clutch packs, simply because I was unsure of how to set the clearances. But yeah, everything else was much easier than anticipated. And that’s even considering I was stupid and pulled everything apart with the trans STILL IN THE CAR.

I’m such an idiot.

The clutch packs are no brainers as well... There's just a snap ring that holds them in and then it's just the pressure plate a clutch disc a steel a clutch disc a steel clutch dish a steel a clutch disc and then the piston on the bottom.. that has a lip seal on the inside and the outside of it. Just a lot of Vaseline and a plastic toothpick and you're good to go... Just like the other stuff you took out it's kind of self-explanatory when you take it apart...

 

[Righty Tighty]

all the more reason to suspect aeration
With the transmission installed, it is a lil difficult to pressure test the case. And since Chrysler put the stinking vent almost right above the input seal, that can make the diagnostic a lil tough too. But I must say, those front seals last several hundred thousand miles.
you can prove the servos and clutches with an air pressure test, but in your case I doubt you would learn anything more than you already know, with your description of the oil.
Honestly; Ima thinking aerated oil
or the pump is sucking air.
A deep pan may solve both problems.

I've been tossing around the idea of a deep pan anyway, since heat is always an issue out here. I think I might try this first. Thanks for the input.

The clutch packs are no brainers as well... There's just a snap ring that holds them in and then it's just the pressure plate a clutch disc a steel a clutch disc a steel clutch dish a steel a clutch disc and then the piston on the bottom.. that has a lip seal on the inside and the outside of it. Just a lot of Vaseline and a plastic toothpick and you're good to go... Just like the other stuff you took out it's kind of self-explanatory when you take it apart...

I don't remember what I was reading when I was doing the 904, but for some reason I remember clutch pack clearances needed to be within some thousandths. I know enough to respect literature that says I need to do something within a thousandth, so that's what I did.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Well, whatever is wrong with it you ain't gonna find out lippin on a internet forum.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Well, whatever is wrong with it you ain't gonna find out lippin on a internet forum.

You're lucky we ain't neighbors....

But you're right. I thought I had time today, but a welding job came in and I had to take it.

 

[j par]

I've been tossing around the idea of a deep pan anyway, since heat is always an issue out here. I think I might try this first. Thanks for the input.


I don't remember what I was reading when I was doing the 904, but for some reason I remember clutch pack clearances needed to be within some thousandths. I know enough to respect literature that says I need to do something within a thousandth, so that's what I did.

That's just when you put it all back together you stick your feeler gauge between the snap ring and everything it holds down and there needs to be a certain amount of clearance so the clutches can release if they're too tight then they'll rub on each other and drag I reckon if they're too loose they'll never engage LOL.. I've never checked it...
Remember the first 904 rebuilt I was all worried about the end play until AAR cuda said he's never checked and play before and rebuilt numerous transmissions for drag racing...

 

[RustyRatRod]

You're lucky we ain't neighbors....

But you're right. I thought I had time today, but a welding job came in and I had to take it.

No it's unfortunate for YOU we ain't neighbors, cause that beeotch would be fixed and RIDIN!

 

[Righty Tighty]

That's just when you put it all back together you stick your feeler gauge between the snap ring and everything it holds down and there needs to be a certain amount of clearance so the clutches can release if they're too tight then they'll rub on each other and drag I reckon if they're too loose they'll never engage LOL.. I've never checked it...
Remember the first 904 rebuilt I was all worried about the end play until AAR cuda said he's never checked and play before and rebuilt numerous transmissions for drag racing...

Well then, that makes me feel a lot more confident about doing myself next time (or this time).

No it's unfortunate for YOU we ain't neighbors, cause that beeotch would be fixed and RIDIN!

You'd be an awesome neighbor to have, that's for sure. For many reasons.

 

[Righty Tighty]

I’ve got the pan off and noticed these bubbly areas of fluid. I never noticed this on the 904 or on this transmission the last time I pulled the pan. Is this normal?

 

[AJ/FormS]

strawberry jam?, lol
NO! Not normal!
I've never seen that either.
All same brand and type of ATF installed?
Looks like aeration alrightee, but these many days later, it should be all back to normal. ATF has additives in it specifically designed to break these bubbles up, in minutes or less so...... IDK. I'll be watching to see what I can learn.

@CudaFactHackJob ?

 

[Righty Tighty]

I mean, the consistency is no different from good fluid, I just noticed these bubbly masses once the pan was off. I kind of thought it could’ve been from the possible aeration you theorized.

The fluid is definitely all the same type (ATF type F), but possibly a couple different brands since I’ve topped off the level a bit since I’ve owned the car.

 

[AJ/FormS]

How long was that since the car was last run in N/P.

You got any of that top-up oil left? If yes. Bring some of it up to room temperature, shake it up real good, then pour some of it into a clear glass container; and see what happens.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Last time it was run in neutral/park was a few days ago when I loaded it on the trailer to take to the shop. I placed in neutral to check the fluid, then ran through all gears as I topped off the fluid.

Unfortunately I don’t think I have any of the fluid left, maybe I can find a partial jug at home. I’ll try that experiment if I can find some.

 

[nckennyb]

It's best to check the hub on the torque converter for cracks in the weld too. I had one to crack and it leaked like a sieve. It was an aftermarket converter. I guess the fluid wicks up through the crack because after I wiped it down and got it good and dry, within a couple of minutes, the weld was wet with fluid again.

 

[Col_Steve]

An overheated or failing converter will cause puking of fluid out of the vent. Plugged oil cooler or kinked lines are the usual culprits. A sticking converter control valve in the valve body is always on my list. I've run across a few that didn't have the baffle plate installed over the inside of the vent hole too. Blowing fluid out of the vent commonly takes place sitting in a traffic jam in drive, or when pulling up a long grade at low speeds.
Failed front seals and cracked converters leak all of the time, and never heal up, so your problem isn't likely either of those. Too much fluid, contaminated fluid, or poor quality fluid should always be looked into. If I were you I'd repair the kinked cooler line, blow out the fluid cooler/heater in the bottom of the radiator first. If the converter has a plug I'd drain it and the pan and refill with top quality ATF+4. If the converter doesn't have a drain plug I'd drill and tap it for a 1/8 pipe plug. It's a drippy job but it doesn't take long and all the metal chips you make will be flushed out while you are doing the job. Worst case you have a worn out pump housing, reaction shaft, and/or pump rotors. If the pump isn't good enough to keep up at idle speed the converter will drain back some which raises the fluid level in the pan high enough to get whipped up by the rotating parts once you get moving again. Foamy fluid will make it slip and leak from the vent. Happy hunting!

Steve

 

[Righty Tighty]

I installed the deep pan yesterday and took another look at the cooler line. It wasn't quite as sharply kinked as I originally thought -- in fact it wasn't kinked at all -- just a sharper bend than previously. I was careful to not overfill the fluid and took her for a test drive. Drove fine, shifted fine, no leaks after about 25 minutes of city driving.

An overheated or failing converter will cause puking of fluid out of the vent. Plugged oil cooler or kinked lines are the usual culprits. A sticking converter control valve in the valve body is always on my list. I've run across a few that didn't have the baffle plate installed over the inside of the vent hole too. Blowing fluid out of the vent commonly takes place sitting in a traffic jam in drive, or when pulling up a long grade at low speeds.
Failed front seals and cracked converters leak all of the time, and never heal up, so your problem isn't likely either of those. Too much fluid, contaminated fluid, or poor quality fluid should always be looked into. If I were you I'd repair the kinked cooler line, blow out the fluid cooler/heater in the bottom of the radiator first. If the converter has a plug I'd drain it and the pan and refill with top quality ATF+4. If the converter doesn't have a drain plug I'd drill and tap it for a 1/8 pipe plug. It's a drippy job but it doesn't take long and all the metal chips you make will be flushed out while you are doing the job. Worst case you have a worn out pump housing, reaction shaft, and/or pump rotors. If the pump isn't good enough to keep up at idle speed the converter will drain back some which raises the fluid level in the pan high enough to get whipped up by the rotating parts once you get moving again. Foamy fluid will make it slip and leak from the vent. Happy hunting!

Steve

Thanks for all that info. With what you've said in mind, I feel like I'd like to pull it out and rebuild it. It's not hard and I would have peace of mind knowing I freshened it up. Although, the valve body does intimidate me...

The car sat for 20 years before I bought it, and I have no idea how the previous owner cared for it.

You mentioned ATF+4? I'm guessing you prefer that over Type F? I've read of folks using Type F to help with firmer shifts, so I've been using that for a couple years. What are your thoughts?

 

[Swinger 340]

I installed the deep pan yesterday and took another look at the cooler line. It wasn't quite as sharply kinked as I originally thought -- in fact it wasn't kinked at all -- just a sharper bend than previously. I was careful to not overfill the fluid and took her for a test drive. Drove fine, shifted fine, no leaks after about 25 minutes of city driving.


Thanks for all that info. With what you've said in mind, I feel like I'd like to pull it out and rebuild it. It's not hard and I would have peace of mind knowing I freshened it up. Although, the valve body does intimidate me...

The car sat for 20 years before I bought it, and I have no idea how the previous owner cared for it.

You mentioned ATF+4? I'm guessing you prefer that over Type F? I've read of folks using Type F to help with firmer shifts, so I've been using that for a couple years. What are your thoughts?

I have used Type F (Ford) fluid for years without problems on my 60's and 70's 727's. Have not used it on my 2005 yet.

 

[MOPARJT]

Well folks, I took the Cuda out for a nice little adventure today, and towards the end I started noticing a little bit of smoke coming from underneath the car while idling in parking lots. I had just replaced the oil pan yesterday and thought perhaps an oil leak.

Then a guy at a stop light was frantically trying to get my attention. He was pointing down as if to signal that I should look under my car. I looked and saw fluid puking out from the bellhousing. This has happened before, but it always stopped on its own very quickly. I had always thought it was because the transmission was over filled and the fluid was coming from the weep hole.

Well, I didn't even make it home before the smoke got worse and the transmission started slipping. I limped home and shut her down immediately.

Now I'm at a crossroads. The plan is to eventually convert the car to a 4 speed, and I already have the setup. But if I do that, won't I have to build the engine differently than it currently is, since it's an auto setup? I'm under the impression that manual transmissions call for different cams. Is that right? I do plan on rebuilding the engine, just not quite yet. I guess the other option is to pull the 727, rebuild it, and run it until I'm ready to do the 4 speed conversion.

 

[MOPARJT]

I would pull the transmission pan and check to make sure the filter is not plugged. That would cause the slippage but I'm not sure if could push the fluid out of the front pump.

 

[RustyRatRod]

A plugged vent will also cause the transmission to push fluid from "wherever it can".

 

[RustyRatRod]

I installed the deep pan yesterday and took another look at the cooler line. It wasn't quite as sharply kinked as I originally thought -- in fact it wasn't kinked at all -- just a sharper bend than previously. I was careful to not overfill the fluid and took her for a test drive. Drove fine, shifted fine, no leaks after about 25 minutes of city driving.


Thanks for all that info. With what you've said in mind, I feel like I'd like to pull it out and rebuild it. It's not hard and I would have peace of mind knowing I freshened it up. Although, the valve body does intimidate me...

The car sat for 20 years before I bought it, and I have no idea how the previous owner cared for it.

You mentioned ATF+4? I'm guessing you prefer that over Type F? I've read of folks using Type F to help with firmer shifts, so I've been using that for a couple years. What are your thoughts?

Don't get derailed on fluid type. That's not causing anything.