Out with the 340 & in with the 410 stroker!

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Intake ports measure
Stock J-155cc
My modified J-184cc

chambers are 62-62.5cc

I would agree with the 155 cc j (stock) heads.
My present porting has my modded head up to 172 cc but still not happy with the flow.......Just yet:toothy10:.
And the rate I'm going, it will be another year before there done.

Hows yours?
About ready to button it back together Yet?

Will be interesting to see the difference. To bad you didn't have a ET before you pulled the eng down..........................
 
Slowly going..
So i got this cc kit I got off of ebay for $72, great deal and comes in very handy..
I cc'd the int runners [pic] as mentioned, funny cause you can't really see the water so I put a piece of lent on it to float.

I stuck the heads on the bare block, marked the heads per side and then using the cylinder, scribed the heads deck/chamber.
Afterward I opened the chambers up to the scribe mark.

If you notice, the chambers hang way into the bore and could definitely become hot spots for pre ignition if not smoothed and or even better...opened up all together.

I also would like to think that instead of a straight de shroud cut at the 'valve side' chamber edge, it would be better to angle that to the seat better transition/bowl the flow toward the valve, like a funnel in this case.

IMG_0979.jpg


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IMG_0999.jpg


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nice work on the engine.

Thanks.

It all started as a deal too good to pass on.... then yrs later became parts laying around collecting dust/rust..
Then free J heads, with not being out any money if hit water porting them
and just wanting to piss people off with cid and J heads that flow more than edelbrocks.

I'll be doing 2 more motors before the year is up-'70 340 long block & 451LDBB short block till I get the heads figured out-either balls to wall ported 915 closed chamber or eddy victors-pro comps something like that, and a solid roller..
 
Get that thing running would you!!! LOL

My yellow car is itching to go somewhere.
 
Way to be diligent in your attention to detail.
Much respect. It's all these things that are a real pain in the ***, but DO end up netting you every last bit of power.

Those are some nice looking heads. I am looking forward to seeing what they make.

Now get the damned thing running like cracked says! ha!
 
Ok update.

The 410 short block is back together, this time I used the narrower full groove main bearings, though the main bearings were perfect..I just said what the hay and bought new ones to rid any fault on the lathe job of the previous mains.

See I found some interesting stuff when I was cleaning/checking the block, the crank 'where it radiuses up from the journal and then drops off to the counter weight' was actually contacting the upper part of the main saddle/web and even clearenced itself....

Crank end play was fine and all seemed good except maybe the crank is a screw up by the machinist who finished it...weird, however the crank, where I can assume it contacted, has no wear or damage there...but I have no other explanation for the wear on the upper saddle...and there is no wear/contact marks on the cap at all....

So after checking and checking...................................and checking, I assembled it and checked again, it's good...and if it go's to bits...it go's to bits....I mean I have already rev'd that bottom end 6500+ numerous times and it lived even with the 'assumed contact'

I should have taken a pic but oh well....


Next matter, I bought a flow performance bench kit and built a flow bench, good news...it works.... it mimicked the previous testing with a shown gain from the back cutting and touch up work I had done during the 2 valve job episodes, minor wall polishing n such..
The new numbers I have from the best flowing of the passenger side head [they are now bank specific due to the chamber correcting I did to match the corresponding cylinders to alleviate hot spots and rid as much shrouding as possible] are as follows.....
.100 76.7
.200 147
.300 204
.400 252
.500 284
.530 290.3
they fall off after .530 lift to 269@ .550 and then to 250/248 from .600 on..
I have tested a retested to make sure I am not fooling myself....
To put that into perspective, Heres the down side...
I have 1 intake port 'opposite end of pass side head' that does not want to flow above .490 lift, it don't drop off horribly but it go's turbulent and sits at 250-252 cfm beyond .490/.500 lift.....they all 'look' identical ...but this is agood example of how looks are deceiving....unless you flow every port to make sure...there is a good chance all of us ported head users could have a lazy port or 2

Here are numbers for the no.8 cyl int port mentioned above
.100 66
.200 136.5
.300 197
.400 247
.480/.490 268.4
.500 & on 262/266 and anything above is full blown turbulence....

The other cylinders 4/6 both flow into .530 lift zone at no.4-277 no. 6-274cfm @.530

The good news part duce is that once the intake go's on....the turbulence go's away and I get an average 255-260 cfm flow when I bolt on a victor 340 manifold, I have not tested with the LD340 yet..

On the exhaust 'after guides were cut flat to the roof ' I have as follows.....
.100 to high a pressure to get a reading=40'', bench can't handle that 'yet'
.200 100
.300 141
.400 168
.500 184
.550 190
.600 202
All the exhaust ports flowed within 3-5 cfm through out the entire range w/pipe....the pipe was 2 1/2'' though, it's all I had at the time, the number could be better with a 1 3/4''

So thats where I am at this minute, trying to bring the lazy port up to par, once I am satisfied, or give up and settle... lol, I will move on to the other 2 intake ports and see if I can squeeze 6-10 cfm out of them in the .500 range.

One thing thats funny, and I wonder if anyone else had this thought, ...is that people worry about int/exh flow ratio, not that they shouldn't...but they take raw numbers most of the time [flowed without intake bolted on] and draw the ratio from that to deem good or bad, but the intake dumps the int numbers into the toilet in the end....so hows that ratio again?? LOL!

in other words...if someone wants to bash my numbers based on a ideal int/ex flow ratio....they should relook at the ratio with 255-260cfm in mind and not the clay radius peak numbers, so the above exh #'s against the 255/260, thats not bad at all.

I have also done some 318 heads for fun, with a 1.78 int valve and 10-15 ,minutes of porting I get [email protected] 182@ .400, 195cfm @.500, 200cfm @ .550
The 318 exhaust flows 88 @.200, 120 @.300, 136 @.400, 146 @.500 ended at that lift cause I was using a spring mic at the time.

Hope you enjoy the info.
 
Ok update.

The 410 short block is back together, this time I used the narrower full groove main bearings, though the main bearings were perfect..I just said what the hay and bought new ones to rid any fault on the lathe job of the previous mains.

See I found some interesting stuff when I was cleaning/checking the block, the crank 'where it radiuses up from the journal and then drops off to the counter weight' was actually contacting the upper part of the main saddle/web and even clearenced itself....

Crank end play was fine and all seemed good except maybe the crank is a screw up by the machinist who finished it...weird, however the crank, where I can assume it contacted, has no wear or damage there...but I have no other explanation for the wear on the upper saddle...and there is no wear/contact marks on the cap at all....

So after checking and checking...................................and checking, I assembled it and checked again, it's good...and if it go's to bits...it go's to bits....I mean I have already rev'd that bottom end 6500+ numerous times and it lived even with the 'assumed contact'

I should have taken a pic but oh well....


Next matter, I bought a flow performance bench kit and built a flow bench, good news...it works.... it mimicked the previous testing with a shown gain from the back cutting and touch up work I had done during the 2 valve job episodes, minor wall polishing n such..
The new numbers I have from the best flowing of the passenger side head [they are now bank specific due to the chamber correcting I did to match the corresponding cylinders to alleviate hot spots and rid as much shrouding as possible] are as follows.....
.100 76.7
.200 147
.300 204
.400 252
.500 284
.530 290.3
they fall off after .530 lift to 269@ .550 and then to 250/248 from .600 on..
I have tested a retested to make sure I am not fooling myself....
To put that into perspective, Heres the down side...
I have 1 intake port 'opposite end of pass side head' that does not want to flow above .490 lift, it don't drop off horribly but it go's turbulent and sits at 250-252 cfm beyond .490/.500 lift.....they all 'look' identical ...but this is agood example of how looks are deceiving....unless you flow every port to make sure...there is a good chance all of us ported head users could have a lazy port or 2

Here are numbers for the no.8 cyl int port mentioned above
.100 66
.200 136.5
.300 197
.400 247
.480/.490 268.4
.500 & on 262/266 and anything above is full blown turbulence....

The other cylinders 4/6 both flow into .530 lift zone at no.4-277 no. 6-274cfm @.530

The good news part duce is that once the intake go's on....the turbulence go's away and I get an average 255-260 cfm flow when I bolt on a victor 340 manifold, I have not tested with the LD340 yet..

On the exhaust 'after guides were cut flat to the roof ' I have as follows.....
.100 to high a pressure to get a reading=40'', bench can't handle that 'yet'
.200 100
.300 141
.400 168
.500 184
.550 190
.600 202
All the exhaust ports flowed within 3-5 cfm through out the entire range w/pipe....the pipe was 2 1/2'' though, it's all I had at the time, the number could be better with a 1 3/4''

So thats where I am at this minute, trying to bring the lazy port up to par, once I am satisfied, or give up and settle... lol, I will move on to the other 2 intake ports and see if I can squeeze 6-10 cfm out of them in the .500 range.

One thing thats funny, and I wonder if anyone else had this thought, ...is that people worry about int/exh flow ratio, not that they shouldn't...but they take raw numbers most of the time [flowed without intake bolted on] and draw the ratio from that to deem good or bad, but the intake dumps the int numbers into the toilet in the end....so hows that ratio again?? LOL!

in other words...if someone wants to bash my numbers based on a ideal int/ex flow ratio....they should relook at the ratio with 255-260cfm in mind and not the clay radius peak numbers, so the above exh #'s against the 255/260, thats not bad at all.

I have also done some 318 heads for fun, with a 1.78 int valve and 10-15 ,minutes of porting I get [email protected] 182@ .400, 195cfm @.500, 200cfm @ .550
The 318 exhaust flows 88 @.200, 120 @.300, 136 @.400, 146 @.500 ended at that lift cause I was using a spring mic at the time.

Hope you enjoy the info.

This is some good information and takes alot of time to put down on "Paper". Thanks for taking the time to share!

Oh, I should have those BOAT anchor heads off the Mock engine so you can play with them very soon.
 
This is some good information and takes alot of time to put down on "Paper". Thanks for taking the time to share!

Oh, I should have those BOAT anchor heads off the Mock engine so you can play with them very soon.

:joker:
 
This is some good information and takes alot of time to put down on "Paper". Thanks for taking the time to share!

Oh, I should have those BOAT anchor heads off the Mock engine so you can play with them very soon.

Cool and thanks, it does take time... a lot of thinking about where to find the ultimate flow and yet not compromise low lift flow, I use up 4 hrs of a day real quick just doing a base test/port work & retest.

With the shape I have, it seems maybe the faster air is on the push rod side of the short turn, I widened that area by removing material from the PR wall starting right before the turn and rounded it more off the wall to the ssr. I was able to slow it down some and get it flowing past .480 to .510, also rounded the ssr peak all the way across.
No.8 flows to .510 and then saturates, but thats better than the full blown turbulence it had before where the flow dropped off. I done with that one...good enough and why wreck it now, Without pitot tubes...I shooting in the dark, it's real close to the max bowl diameter or at least in my mind 'playing it safe since I have $890 in these dinosaur bones.

Here are all the no.8 'problem port' #'s from 1st test to touch up and re test over and over.
intial port job-1st retouch-2nd retouch-3rd retouch-final conservative try
.100 64 - 63 - 66- 64.- 64--
.200 136 136 136 134 134
.300 189 195 197 195 194
.400 243 245 247 246 246
.475 264 266 268 268 na didn't measure
.500 254 258 257 266 268 peak
.530------------------ 265
.550 ----------------- 265

I just wanted the damn thing to flow to .500 or better, it does, done.](*,)
 
Cool and thanks, it does take time... a lot of thinking about where to find the ultimate flow and yet not compromise low lift flow, I use up 4 hrs of a day real quick just doing a base test/port work & retest.

With the shape I have, it seems maybe the faster air is on the push rod side of the short turn, I widened that area by removing material from the PR wall starting right before the turn and rounded it more off the wall to the ssr. I was able to slow it down some and get it flowing past .480 to .510, also rounded the ssr peak all the way across.
No.8 flows to .510 and then saturates, but thats better than the full blown turbulence it had before where the flow dropped off. I done with that one...good enough and why wreck it now, Without pitot tubes...I shooting in the dark, it's real close to the max bowl diameter or at least in my mind 'playing it safe since I have $890 in these dinosaur bones.

Here are all the no.8 'problem port' #'s from 1st test to touch up and re test over and over.
intial port job-1st retouch-2nd retouch-3rd retouch-final conservative try
.100 64 - 63 - 66- 64.- 64--
.200 136 136 136 134 134
.300 189 195 197 195 194
.400 243 245 247 246 246
.475 264 266 268 268 na didn't measure
.500 254 258 257 266 268 peak
.530------------------ 265
.550 ----------------- 265

I just wanted the damn thing to flow to .500 or better, it does, done.](*,)

Next time try doing all the porting and VJ first, but leave the chamber shrouding the intake valve....
 
For fun I offset the head exposing the edge of the chamber into the bore on the intake side, it dropped off some

Thats all on a 4'' bore adaptor.

That won't work the same way as leaving the valve shrouded. When you unshroud the valve you load the short turn harder in that area....
 
That won't work the same way as leaving the valve shrouded. When you unshroud the valve you load the short turn harder in that area....


so the shrouding now helps directs flow, keeping the speed up to resist the short turn from pulling it down-more air flow on the ssr/loaded.

right, wrong or close? since I take this as Im supposed to fill in the blanks '.......'
 
I may be concluding wrongly and I'm sure others can tell me if I am... but the flow around the head of a valve if there is no impediment on the approach or beyond the valve head looks like a tear drop (it curves around the valve head as it passes the seat angle for the entire circumference and then tapers in a cone shape with the "tip" of the cone at varying distances from the valve as it goes through the opening and closing manuevers). The Mopar intake ports are all handed (because they are EIIE EIIE) and the resulting shrouding is always on the long length of the port. I think by removing all shrouding but not being able to address the "handed" aspect of the port and in particular the area leading to the SSR on the long side, you end up causing more turbulence in the bowl area leading to the seat where the long side of the handed port, and the short side of the handed port have to converge. More because the on the longer, straighter side the air needs to be slowed down to make the turn in the same volumes as the short where its being slowed and turned by the pushrod bulge. The shrouding will help "abcl up" or slow down the longer fast side, allowing for the valve to flow it's entire perimeter and the cylinder to fill better. On a non-handed portm shrouding is much more of a "bad thing". On a handed port it might not be so bad...
I think....lol.
 
Good thoughts behind that moper, thanks

I have been trying to determine the faster areas, even used a very small swizzel straw moving it around across the ssr, it seems the middle of the ssr [where it 'as cast' has a lil swail to it] is really moving compared to the straight or push rod, though the push rod side seems to pull that straw over pretty hard..

My goal is to slow it some at the turn and rid some backing up a port or 2, I've been able to get saturation instead of backing up on port 8, so widening the area above/across the ssr is working.

I have been fiddling with leaving a lil lip at the ssr peak to see how it may or may not help low lift...Im getting the notion that it does not help .500 and above lift flow.

When the numbers go south at .475, I lay the turn back from about half way up from the seat, leaving the height/length above the seat to keep that necessary radius, it seems to help in the .300-.500 range picks up 5 cfm or so and leaves a higher # when getting turbulent..

bunch of ideas, like the widening between the guide and straight wall along with raising it as much as I can get away with, the best port has the highest roof/widest guide/wall area...I wonder if this slows the air at the turn some....
 
I have read about pro porters using air dams or featuers with the thought that they helped flow within a certain lift range. I think for the most part they were working on class restriction heads tho... Where they could port, but cam size was limited. So the trick was to get that certain window of lift to move. Where in an unlimited port, normally you try to go for the fastest, smooth flow and most well rounded flow in terms of all lifts. Then use the cam duration to fill the cylinder.
I've always used volume to slow down the air when I felt I needed to. But I also do not add a lot of volume normally, especially in the bowl. I noticed in the pics you like to remove the guide and re-contour the roof into the bowl. I generally widen the side channels around the guide on the inside bend but don't do much on the long straight side. I dont remove too much from the guide boss, although I smooth and re-shape the beginning of the guide further in the port on the roof. My thought behind this approach is when you have a wet flow situation, the added volume on the roof will slow down the airstream, which is what you want, but the fuel may want to fall out of suspension right at the SSR, especially at lower rpms. The SSR I lean back lightly but I don't shorten the height much if at all. More removing the cast finish is about it. My understanding is the SSR needs to help the air turn but there's a fine line between helping it turn, going for big numbers, and making it slam into the backside of the valve or seperate the mixture. I'll be ineterested to see what Brian says.
 
You need to determine what net valve lift you plan on running, rpm, duration, compression, overall valve speed, induction, exhaust limitations, and rpm range before you can port the head for the best results.
If you really want good flow characteristics at high lift AND velocity profile, then you will push the casting to it's max in every port which takes using a sonic tester and TONS of time. But for as long as the casting holds out you can make incredible power because there is so much airspeed in the stock castings.

I always figure about .100 below max lift measured at the retainer with the springs you plan on running as what the engine will see at it's best rpms (between peak TQ and peak HP).
So .650 lift cam, work the head for strong #'s and correct air speed from .550 down. If rpm is high (7000 or more) then high lift #'s take presedence over low speed flow #'s as far as quality of air.
If rpm is lower than 7000 peak, low-mid lift #'s become more important but only if you can keep the airspeed in check at .100 below max lift. Otherwise power will suffer.

SB mopars love WIDE short turns but stock castings will penalize you in a hurry. Tubing the head bolt holes is good but be carefull because water is everywhere in stock castings.

Indy's are not much better though water jacket wise.

As for valve shrouding...it can help the port flow higher lift #'s before it goes turbulent and loses flow...but before you get carried away flow the head with the intake on, block off all the ports except the port you plan of flowing and add some clay to the top of the intake where the carb sits. If the intake helps the port keep flowing more air with more lift, then you can try unshrouding a little at a time until it gets worse or you've reached the gasket line.
I've sped the air up in W2's so much that it would drop off or go very turbulent at .500 lift, like 420fps at the short turn at .500! And with the intake on, got the port to keep flowing up to .600 lift with very fast airspeed, and as long as the rpm of the engine is not going to exceed 7000rpm you'll make excellent HP and TQ.
You'll never get reasonable air speed from a stock casting AND alot of flow....not without putting holes everywhere!! LOL!!
Brian
 
Flowed the driver side head 3,5,7 int ports
here are the numbers
.........3.......5.......7
.100 64.4...65....... 67
.200 132....134.7....135.7
.300 195....194.8....195
.400 240....242.......245
.500 270....272.......276.8
.510 272....275*......277*
.550 278*...270.......262

Probably gonna leave'em alone, I want to keep the low lift up and I'm pretty sure at this point if I keep going to get higher peaks..it'll be at the cost of the low lift flow or possibly water depending on the amount of core shift these heads may have, I can go wild on another set later..

I kinda think if I want a lil more...I can go with 2.05 intake valve and a better valve job with a 'porters designed' cutter, since with the bigger valve it will not sink the seat more than it is.
fwiw
 
That's enough flow to give them Japper/Rice Burners something to think twice about! haaaa


i wish they all did 290cfm, some are 'within 12 cfm' but i can't afford going into water.

it'll destroy them.

thats enough flow for 550hp or so easy, im just lookin to make around 520 or so, but the cam is not quite there....lookin at 1.6 rockers to get it to .580's lift
It was pissed off before, it should be really angry now..lol
 
Ok....
I've been mulling it over and staring at these ports off and on 'totally baked of corse', and well...., ok lets clarify this a lil. Before I got the last numbers for cyl 1 , I had these
.100-65.2
.200-134
.300-197
.400-249
.500-275
.510-270
.520-260
.550-256
So like I said...after staring at them fro a while I decided to go at them again, this time working the push rod wall heavily all the way into bowl and laying the shor turn ALL THE WAY back into the ramp on the floor...so now there is no lip and more of a plain at the highest portion. I also layed the straight tall part of the turn back so that it almost starts turn sooner than the push rod side of the short turn does.
It worked
.100-65.3
.200-135
.300-195
.400-242.8
.500-276
.550-280

So thats that port, now I moved on with the same tactic onto the #8 port that was stuck at mid 260's and saturating...
Previous numbers..
.100-64
.200-134
.300-194
.400-246
.500-267
.550-263

After doing the above mentioned approach...
.100-65
.200-133.4
.300-193
.400-243
.500-276
.550-282

I'm stoked to say the least.
I also learned how important it is to align the bore adaptor, if it's off...it will show poor numbers, the bore actually helps carry flow...just like when I offset the int valve to put it closer to the center of the bore=the numbers dropped off.

it's about a steady tight stream and not a bunch of air going every which direction and cause the following air behind it to crash and back up.
so all the passenger side ports now flow 279-282cfm @ .550 with 270's cfm at .500

I think I might start with a stock set and another thread with step by step pics and number reports...but for now, since these are going on the 410, this thread will work.
 
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