Slant 6 Turbo 68Dart Project

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Turbo Slant Six Dyno Pull HybridWorks - YouTube

Well, proof is in the numbers.
dynoresults_zpse1b39b87.jpg

Look at it this way: Dyno runs usually are representative of about 85 percent of flywheel horsepower.

164 is about 85-percent of 192 (flywheel hp.)

or, about 85 percent of 1 hp per cubic inch... and this with a failing ignition system and only 8 pounds of boost...

WOW!

LOOKOUT, when you get 10 pounds of boost and flawless ignition!!! :blob:

Yes, tuning iS the key to all things good on these babies...:cheers:

Keep after it!!
 
Thanks BIll. No matter what power it's making, it's still astronomical compared to what it was. I can get up to freeway speed before the onramp is over for once, and other useful things, plus a turbo slant is just... cool. I'll sort it all out, adjust my valves again, check and remove any and all leaks, and get her real smooth, then test again at 10psi. It should be a monster.

Right now I'm trying to figure out an appropriate gap. I realized after some thought that the last set of plugs i bought, I threw in there with the stock gap that came with the plug because I was trying to sort out a misfire, and a bit upset at the time, so the question is - what should it be?

A lot of people suggest .028. On NGK's website they suggest closing the gap .04 for every 50 more hp you intend to make, but an OG mechanic that comes by the shop often says that with my electronic ignition, the plugs should be opened out to .040 something. He does know his way around an engine and that's how he makes a living, so I am inclined to think what he's saying has some merrit, but is it applicable here?

So what SHOULD the gap be?
 
, then test again at 10psi. It should be a monster.

Right now I'm trying to figure out an appropriate gap.

So what SHOULD the gap be?

With all those (listed) improvements, it will be a pleasure to drive, and fast, in the strictest sense of the word! Potential for LOTS of smiles, here...

Most of the knowledgeable people I have read opinions from, say two things, almost to a man... 1. Run the absolute coldest non-extended plug you can acquire, and 2. Gap them at .022"-.025" (NO TYPO.)

But, that was for engines looking for max output at 20+ pounds of boost. Your setup may be more forgiving than that... I am the wrong one to ask... obviously.

Good luck with that.

I am pretty jealous of your impressive progress, for sure!!! I love the way you get things done, in spite of all the odds... amazing!!!:cheers:
 
Well, got a set of 6 new plugs just to do some experimenting with. At $10 for a set of 6 it's ok to have a few sets with different gaps laying around. These ones stock look like they have a setting of .028 already without doing anything, checked on my gapping coin. I'll pop the plugs out of the slant, but I have a feeling they're the same. I did hear from someone that a wavy line near the peak power on a dyno could be a plug/ignition issue, and if you look at the hilltop of the dyno sheet I posted, they all wave up there.

I want to make the most of this setup at 10psi and make it super solid. 10 is respectable and safe, and probably will make the most longevity of spooling the Chinese turbo till I get a different one. I may find someone who can also weld up a more complex charge pipe after the intercooler with fewer silicone couplings. On one of them I saw air visibly escape the coupling while the car was on the dyno, so I know they're not up to snuff really. The pressure in the manifold charges up quick enough, but apparently under higher pressure it does leak, so that needs to be sorted out.

I don't know if you can see it in the video, but in reality it looked like a little puff of air and it was slightly smoky looking.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HElZ4DB49k0"]Turbo Slant Six Dyno Pull HybridWorks - YouTube[/ame]

Someone on a seperate turbo mopar forum suggested I build a det-can system so I can listen to the motor. I REALLY REALLY like the idea of this, and will figure a way to integrate it to one of the inputs on my stereo, so at any time, I can switch to "engine" input, and listen to the motor via a microphone amplifier to listen for detonation and set the timing audibly. I'll make a DIY about it once I finish it. I think it's a rather good idea. The whole limiting of 18 degrees is kind of limiting in the longrun, so higher may still work, and then I could hear it, back off, and change the timing till i get something really well and report back on how it works.

I want to have a very well tuned 10psi system and see what can be done with a purely stock slant with a turbocharger bolted to it. If I get 225whp that would be ...so... cool.
 
I want to have a very well tuned 10psi system and see what can be done with a purely stock slant with a turbocharger bolted to it. If I get 225whp that would be ...so... cool.[/QUOTE



Here is a bone stock, turbocharged, slant six that had only a 4bbl carb and manifold... no other modifications. It ran 12.95-seconds in the quarter-mile, with a mph of 104. It takes about 300 hp to run those numbers in a 3,400-pound car like Tom's Dart.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPe_vHwZsF4"]Slant Six Turbo 1970 Dodge Dart 1/4 Mile pass - YouTube[/ame]

Very impressive, BUT, it was running 18 pounds of boost to do that.

Just shows what a turbo can do for this motor and its strangulated cylinder head. with no other mods.

Of course, the stock pistons and rods won't survive long, under that kind of boost.

Ten pounds and 18 degrees of spark advance might last indefinitely, though, with the right mixture.

What you do NOT want to hear, EVER, is detonation under boost with stock, reciprocating components. in fact, forged pistons and rods don't much like that, either.

So, I think that 18 degrees of spark advance is IT for me... I dare not experiment further (no guts.) If Ryan Peterson and Tom Wolfe can make 500 horsepower out of their 225's at 18 degrees, that is good enough for me...

I'll do my experimenting, elsewhere. :banghead:
 
18 might be it for me too. I may need to just do some more work with the distributor and hook up the Volvo boost retard unit and see what i can make happen.

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Well, replaced the front right tie bar end links because the wheel was banging on directional changes. Now that's gone, and everything's back to normal. I set the measurements with calipers and set the threads the same as the old ones so it should last till an allignment not to far off.

The thing I'm looking into now is a mystery oil spitting from somewhere. It has to be spitting because it is up on the firewall above where the ignition ballast is. My initial thought was one of the seals on the turbo, since i saw a tiny drop near there. These are all tiny drops. It gets maybe about 2 drops visible on the firewall every other day, less than 1/4 inch, and the car looses no oil.

My thought is oil residue on the K frame that I've missed getting blown off by the radiator fan and onto the firewall, but I'm really keeping an eye on this turbo and its seals just to be safe.

In other news though, the car just runs real great. I've hit about 1k miles with the (functioning) turbo setup. The car drives great on the freeway and in town, and I'm slowly cleaning up the undercarriage, going to get an oil pressure sender on the car (not just the low oil sender) and work with the timing more. I also intend to find some longer aluminum tubing and have someone weld together a single length to go between the carb hat and the intercooler outlet. I think the multiple silicone links are causing issues with sealing pressure. 8psi is still what I'm hitting even turning the boost controller a few clicks. It might be that it needs more turning, but I don't want to overdo it.
 
for the oil. what does your breather look like. after a hard pull on my car my valve cover is soaked from my breather. im thinking about running a hose to the front of my turbo.
 
for the oil. what does your breather look like. after a hard pull on my car my valve cover is soaked from my breather. im thinking about running a hose to the front of my turbo.

My breather is really clean - not perfect and a little tiny bit oily, but it's not dripping oil. Nothing above the block is weeping at all (which is good I think - minimal blowby) but the oil pan developed a small hole in the RTV that was previously between it and the block just under the exhaust manifold outlet, and it gets a streak of oil, which I think might be what's blowing up onto the firewall also, not sure. I have not dropped the oil pan since owning the car and it looks like sealant was being used to stop a leaky gasket. I'll drop it eventually and fix, but at this point, whatever's coming out is barely noticable, just on the oil pan paint.
 
I just noticed this super slight leak on the exhaust side of the turbo after trying to get the car to pull past 10psi. No matter how i set the MBC, 10 is just it it seems, which I'll live with for now. I have to sort out a small exhaust leak under the turbo housing itself, and some kind of vacuum leak somewhere that i just can't seem to find. The car either idles at 900, or shuts off, which to me seems like a vac leak. Also soon I'm going to unbolt the carb again, clean it out, and use my dremel to even out the old choke cut up portion on top and see if I can get rid of some of that excess material.

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I think with this turbo I'm noticing too many ill effects trying to get past 10, so I'm going to drop it back to 8, and leave it till I get a better snail shell, and sort out the ignition. At 10 I was starting to hear what sounded like detonation even under 18 degrees of advance. There's more playing around and tuning to be done.

I also may go get myself a HEI unit and experiment with that very shortly. I like the idea of putting it inside a Mopar ECU box, but I have a Mallory box i might strip out and use. It should fit a CPU heatsink and the unit nicely.
 
I also may go get myself a HEI unit and experiment with that very shortly. I like the idea of putting it inside a Mopar ECU box, but I have a Mallory box i might strip out and use. It should fit a CPU heatsink and the unit nicely.

My un-asked-for advice... based on my limited experience with my (similar) 10-pound engine, which has never shown the slightest indication of any sort of ignition of ignition failure, under boost or not under boost. It just has never "missed".... so far:prayer::prayer::prayer:

What I use is an OEM (refurbished by Cardone, from Rock Auto) slant six "lean burn" distributor that has a locked plate (factory) having neither a centrifugal advance mechanism nor a vacuum advance diaphragm, with the timing set (by me) at 18 degrees.

It is wired to an MSD 6-AL digital, but, non-programable, ignition module using no ballast resistor.

That's it.

The downside of this setup is, the gas mileage in UNBELIEVEABLY BAD!!!

No way would it be workable for a street car. NO WAY.

The drivability, starting, and idle are flawless, which is hard to believe, but apparently a correct spark advance curve in not important unless you care about fuel economy.

And, of course, you do. I am thinking that the simple addition of a vacuum canister to give this distributor some vacuum advance MIGHT alter the spark event to the extent that some semblance of reasonable economy might be possible during cruise conditions. But, you'd probably need something on the order of a total of 48 degrees (or more,) to achieve good mileage. That would require 30 degrees of crank-measured advance, an amount I am not at all sure is possible with an OEM Mopar distributor. Do you know?

Anyway, the simplicity and low-cost of this setup is its appeal. Plus, it seems to work... at least, for me. The only significant cost is the MSD unit, which can be found on EBay for cheaper...

Food for thought in the K.I.S.S. vein...
 
Bill, I have an MSD-6 ALN, and a Mallory (4 I believe?) that I can pick between to run. The distributor I'm using currently is the Mopar Points Dizzy, with a Pertronix pickup and trigger installed. The advance governing plate has been welded closed slightly to allow for 8* advance, and the initial is set to 10 advanced under no vacuum. With the vacuum advance hooked up and a good rev, it will get up to about 34 degrees advanced stated by my dad's Snap-On timing light, where I back up the timing on the light till it hits 0. Once boost is on I'm assuming it just drops to 18, but no real way to tell that. I want to experiment with the Volvo unit I have as well to see if I can allow the governor plate to be opened up a bit if the pod is going to retard the timing. It may only have 5* of control though.

Yesterday, I made a spark plug swap. The ones in there had a .028 opening, and I gapped some new plugs to .035 and just tried what the engine guy recommended. It started on the first try this time in the morning, and idled fine, and did not shut down like usual (which is common in the morning, then a restart will make it run fine).

I also had to retune and adjust the carb and everything because the idle was much smoother now and the engine was running at about 1200RPM curb idle. I managed to drop it to 800 which is the lowest I've gotten it with the turbo setup installed. I drove it around. It seemed good. I also discovered the vacuum leak - right at the base of the carb. The plate that mounts to the intake to adapt the carb seems to be a little loose. I'll have to disassemble and tighten it down and find a way to make it not come loose again.
 
got me thinking about this now. might have to open up the gap on my plugs and see what happens. wondering if it might help with what i got going on at cruise.
 
got me thinking about this now. might have to open up the gap on my plugs and see what happens. wondering if it might help with what i got going on at cruise.

Jr, let me tell you, gapping those plugs open a bit - the difference is night and day, I was obviously not burning everything - the car doesn't smell like gas anymore, and the idle was way smoother. It even drives a hell of a lot quieter and everything - is just - night and day - totally, but I'm also running low boost, so this may be a safer option for me. Remember the gap is amplified by the amount of pressure in the cylinder, but i think even at a 20psi increase it's not going to effect it too hard.

Everyone on sl6.org suggests somehwere in the .040 + range for a stock slant, and that's what the engine guy at the shop said if you have electronic ignition. Everyone with a turbo has it gapped to .028 - .030 or something like that. I've found that .035 is kind of centered to what is being said, so I went with as close to that as I could bend. If you have a MSD or HEI I'm sure your ignition system can handle the distance. I'm thinking the problem with the gap and turbos is when the pressure is too high, the distance needing to be covered exceeds the voltage of your coil, therfor you have a misfire under higher load.

It can't really be a temp issue I think because I'm running the stock engine - 1 step colder plugs, and there is no overheat, and the car just sounds better - audibly.

Granted - this may be an isolated incident and my setup just wants a bigger gap, but we'll see. Driving around today I had no issue getting up to 8psi smoothly and the car even starts the first time now and stays running in the morning. The idle speed was also way higher once I did that and ran with a lot less stumbling when cold - had to turn the idle screws down.
 
sounds good. im gonna give it a shot. i had them gapped at .045 before the turbo and when i first put the turbo on. it was my understanding that the smaller gap was necessary because of the extra pressure makes it harder for the spark to jump the gap and somehow the boost would blow out the spark. lol. i know it sounds weird but its a real thing, i swear. i have read it in quite a few places. i do have the hei, think i might just put them back to the .045 and see what happens.
 
It is a real thing, depending on on how many atmospheres are in the cylinder - it increases the gap by that many times. So ~14psi for one atmosphere, 150lbs of compression (kinda) would be 10.7 something. Let's say it's 10 times. SO a gap of .040 @ 10 atmospheres would be 400 thousandths, which is kinda close to 3/8 of an inch. That requires a bit of voltage to cross that gap. I'm not sure how much though - that part of the math I am unfamiliar with.

For every .125 you are talking an 1/8 of an inch though.

@.035 the spark would jump ".350" and at .028 it's .280 (in a perfect world).

Then you add pressure - jump distance increases.

So if a slant is meant to run a .045 and there is "150psi" of compression, and no boost, then the gap jump is .450 if my math is right (which it could not be, and air is not necessarily perfect, and you may not have 150psi in a cylinder, but for the example you do)...

So @20psi of boost, I'd think you want to reduce the gap by about 1.3 atmospheres . So you have 170psi compression now -

170 /14 = 12.14.
150/14 = 10.71

At 170psi the gap is 12.14 times the amount it is. So a .045 gap is really .546

At .035 it is .425 which is slightly less than the gap at .045 Naturally aspirated.

If you were able to get a good median estimate of all the cylinders in your car's compression and found the actual conversion table - and measured by an actual atmosphere - AND found the exact awesome gap an N/A slant is meant to run at - you may be able to figure out the EXACT gap to reach the same specs at 20psi.
 
yea you lost me with the math. lol. i get the gist of what you are saying though. the stock gap for a slant with mopar ei is .035. im running the gm hei which calls for a .045 gap on any stock chevy.

im more of an eye it up and make it work kinda guy vs. math and measurements. im just gonna open them up and take it for a blast. if its all smooth and pulls like it should then its all good. if not ill close them up a little at a time and see where it works. not sure when im gonna have time to do it but ill let you know how it works out.
 
Did you try adjusting the gap and seeing? I noticed i have some minor (what seems to be) blowout around 4000RPM, but in actual driving conditions I never really get over 2,500 even on the freeway. I had to accelerate in 1st gear and see if I could make it go out. I'm also considering finally placing the MSD on, but am making up a nicer wiring harness for it. I'm thinking of redoing most of the under-hood wiring and reducing it all to one harness across the back. I will also move the ignition relay towards the firewall - it's just hanging out in space by itself without the battery there.

I have also been considering track time for the car. I guess i need some kind of external battery shut-off.

Did you need one Jr? Or will they let it go because it's not a sub 10 second car or something?

If it needs one, can I put it under a bumper or something? I don't want a huge push pull switch on the body anywhere.
 
havent adjusted the gaps yet. i did get some new plugs to put in though. once i get the carb settled ill open them up. i wanna get my cruise afr under control and go from there.

ive had the battery in the trunk for a few years now. even before the turbo. the only thing they have worried about was that it was bolted down solid. every track is different though. my local track requires a cage a 11.5 where as most others dont until you are in the 10's. they like to pick and choose what rules to enforce. they also wanted me to have a snell rated helmet before and after the turbo and with the turbo they required a fire jacket. i would call ahead and see if they require them and if they rent them if you dont have one. they wanted the jacket because my turbo was aftermarket.

if you do put the shut off on the car it has to be somewhere that the track personnel will be able to see it easily. they make a few that have removable switches so they arent as noticeable when you arent at the track.

all that being said. go to the track and see what happens. dont worry about taking all the stuff out. just run it in street trim. pull the hubcaps and have some fun. it is fun. watch a couple races if its your first time to see how they stage.
 
Well, I hope i have made some major improvements today.

Yesterday, I was driving on the freeway, and noticed I no longer had my desired 11.8 AFR under boost - it was more like 16. SO I backed off, and drove about 60 home on the freeway. I got home, and unbolted the carb after the motor cooled a bit.

I bought the carb from a member and for some reason I was under the impression there was 70 size jets in it. I just assembled the carb when I got it - made sure the jets were tight by trying to crank on them with a flathead, and drove, and it worked fine, till recently.

I took it apart, and read the jets this time - 61, and a 56. Oh boy. I scrounged through my jets and found two 62's and put them in. I also did some more modifications on the carb - including making a boost activated power valve - or BRPV.

I took the simple approach and took the power valve apart and it took a long time, but was not difficult. The instructions are readily available online, but i forget where I found them. Pictures were included and I used a dremel with grinding wheels as opposed to a bench grinder and did just fine.

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I know it's a bit overkill for referencing, but I still had some nice 3/8" tubing to use, and after making a 1/4" pilot hole that was directed away from all passages and bores, I drilled a 3/8" hole into the side of the carburetor to meet the power valve pocket.

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I was very careful to measure out a line on it so i wouldn't blow into the bore, or out the side somewhere.

Hole is plenty big. lol.

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I bent a short piece of 3/8" tubing, and another short piece to meet a hole I drilled at an angle in the carb hat base. I wanted to bend a piece to join both spots because I thought it would look really slick, but I kept braking it trying to make sharp bends that the tubing just didn't want to make. My pipe bended made too much of an arc to actually be usable - so I used a short piece of rubber hose between the two and gave it clearance so I could replace it if needed. It still looks pretty good I think. Some of these I've seen people that could drill through the stud threading to the cavity and just leave it at that, but i didn't want to risk that.

Others have the lead tapped into the intake, and I could do that in the future if this doesn't work well, and that just means running a longer hose from the cavity to the manifold - no big deal - then sealing up the upper hole - again no big deal. But right now it's self contained and I think it looks good too.

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I shortened the hose after this picture so there wasn't as much of a kink in it - but you get the idea. I hammered both tubes in completely with some JB on them, and then also sealed the outside with the JB steel weld just for good measure as the stuff has worked real well for me in the past.

For the other side of the power valve I made a frame from some thick gauge stainless wire. It basically looks pretty phallic - so you get the idea there too. It's really sturdy and relies on being tightly wrapped around the jets, bent in and stressed against the body of the metering block, then the other side is held in by the gasket and being wrapped tight. I threw it around and wiggled it a lot - but it holds tight. I set the spring under it and bent a locking hook in it. It doesn't move off the valve, and the valve functions with pressure from the other side. - perfect.

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Then I cleaned up the insides of the carb and set it to wait for the JB to cure, and reassembled it.

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What I think was going on - is I had a really high AFR during low throttle cruising - something like a 16. Then when pushing the gas it hit 13, then at WOT it hit 11.8. I tried to stay on it on the freeway the other day and found it only maintained an 11 for a little bit, then slowly went to 16 again. I believe the jets were carrying it too lean for low cruise, so they were a bit too small @ 56/61 which I'm thinking was close to two 58's basically. When the gas was pushed, the vacuum would let off and open the power valve and give it good 13-11 AFR's, then the boost would come on and the AFR would stay for a minute, then the boost would close the power valve again and lean out with only the jets pushing it at WOT.

SO - this modification I'm hoping solves some stuff. I put in two #62 Jets, cleaned everything out, and made it so the power valve opens on boost, rather than half vacuum, and the restrictors have been opened very very slightly. We'll see how this goes in the morning when it's light out and i can put the carb back on.
 
I like your DIY methods. Kinda like a farmer :)
 
just a thought. if you could make the line that is coming up to the area under that hat more like the vte it should work a little better. you would have boost + air flow pushing on the power valve then.
 
You mean point it at the intake tube? You think itll run ok without for now? I'll have to engineer something else for that. I started it up a few minutes ago and it was a little hard to start but eventually i got it and now it'll start whenever I crank it.

I have not driven it yet, so we'll see what happens. Turns out one of the screw holes for the choke switch was a air passage and it leaked till I put the screw back in.
 
yea. run it right up next to your vent tube extension. it should run fine without it. may not even need to do it at all. my thought on it is that you would want the most pressure you can get in there to hold the power valve open against the pressure coming into the fuel bowl. did you block off the passage on the bottom of the carb that usually lets the vacuum into the power valve chamber? its going to act like a vacuum leak if not. might even make the power valve flutter from bleeding off the higher boost. or keep it from opening at all. what number power valve spring did you use? still running 10psi?

just keep an eye on the gauge when you get on it. it should start dropping normally into the richer afr's then all at once down to the target afr if the boost reference is working.
 
I blocked the passage by loading it up with JB. I found it by blowing on the base of the carb till I saw which hole bled to the power valve cavity. I filled it from both sides so it should be closed off pretty good.

I was thinking that the cavity was already boost referenced before since that hole led to the intake basically after the throttle plates so it should see pressure, but this will keep vacuum out of it all-together I think.

One thing I've been getting into recently is reading the vacuum/boost gauge and people have been posting lately a lot of information on what the numbers could mean. Mine reads 10 inches under idle no matter how i seem to adjust it and this seems to be synonymous to chain slop or valve timing off. I looked up a new timing set and Oreillys' has one from Cloys I believe for $25 for the two gears and chain, or a "performance" one made by CompCams for $50.

Anyone done this in the car? I'd assume just removing the radiator and fan it could be done easily enough. Maybe the radiator doesn't even need to come out, and at less than $100 I think there's no reason not to replace it even if it isn't messed up. The engine has 100,700 miles on it. I'm thinking this could be the reason I seem to be having these timing issues, and why it seems it's not making as much power as its supposed to .

Also how do i go about the removal/reinstallation process for the 3 parts? Where and what am I trying to line up because I'm assuming whatever needs to be alligned, is not if the chain is slacked a bit.
 
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