Tame my 4-speed Stroker....

-
I'm comparing the current slip data against the data when running slicks and a bigger cam.
It tells me the chassis is giving as much as it can in the current configuration.
The tamer may gain some 60' a 10th or two
 
I'm lost on how a steel flywheel is a better heat sink than aluminum.

The pressure ring in most pressure plates is aluminum as well. Less weight and less rotating mass.

Part of it is about how quickly the heat transfer must take place. If you were relying on convection to transfer heat into the air, aluminum works pretty well. But there isn't enough time for convection to happen with a clutch, not to mention the clutch is in a confined space. Add to that with an aluminum flywheel you are trying to transfer heat from the insert to the aluminum. There are small gaps and spaces between the two materials which act as insulators to inhibit heat transfer. Remember the heat conductive gel used when mounting some electrical components? It's used to fill those gaps and spaces to improve heat transfer between two surfaces, but that gel is not really practical for a flywheel/insert application.

Then there's the insert being attached to the aluminum, with the aluminum providing most of the structure to keep the insert flat at room temperature. When slipping, the insert absorbs heat faster than it can transfer it to the aluminum. Because the insert has little mass it's temp rises very quickly, causing it to grow at a faster rate than the aluminum. When this happens, the areas of the insert that are bolted to the aluminum are restrained somewhat compared to the areas that are not. This is causes the insert to warp, and with that warping comes loss of intimate contact between the two materials which is needed for direct heat transfer. Pretty much the point of no return as not only does the insert temps skyrocket at this point, but so do the disc temps.

I agree with running a sintered iron disc with the clutch tamer. The disc Jpar posted earlier is NOT sintered iron. The common name back in the 80's was vel-ve-touch or something similar. It won't take slipping for very long. And the tune up window between slipping and living and slipping and peeling the friction off the disc is very narrow. I could never find it. And I tried it with both Ram 6 and 3 puck discs. If you slipped it enough to make the car move and not kill parts, 6 runs was about max.

The friction materials used in a clutch are basically the same as those used in a brake system. As with a brake system, they will all last a long time as long as temps are kept in check. It's the reason an oval or road course car with heavier rotors can post quicker lap times when that course requires a significant amount of braking. There's a reason you don't see steel inserts on aluminum rotors.

As for FW weight, I'll say it again. The less rotating inertia you can get, the higher you can be on the chip and still make the car leave. That means the average guy can get a catalog out and find the standard 15 pound FW. Mine weighed in at 11 pounds FWIW, which is what it was said to be.

You and I both know that most cars out there have chassis that are questionable...at best. Some are just junk. Most guys think a 3 way adjustable shock up front and a 9 way in the back is the cats ***. We also both know that the RPM limit at launch is RPM/IC/rotational inertia/available traction. That's about it for the simple math of it. And shock tuning ability.

If you have a 30 pound FW and you can set the chip at 5000 at the most, you can go to a 15 pound FW and move the chip up. How much requires some testing. But you can move it up because you reduced your rotational inertia by 50% (at least the FW part of the equation...the disc and PP also add to that) and the tire can now take the higher RPM. Now it takes less clutch manipulation to control clutch application etc. And, you have less RPM to pull back in first gear.

If someone is using FW weight to move the car, they either don't have the correct SLR or their gearing is just wrong. And probably too big of a tire. Seen that a bunch. 14x32 tires on a 3200 pound car running 10's is more than plenty.

A flywheel is an energy storage device. The entire rotating assy is the actual effective flywheel, the part we call a flywheel is only one part of that. When you spin that flywheel up, you are charging it with energy. That energy contained is a function of the flywheel's rpm. The more energy you charge it with, the faster it will spin. And when a flywheel loses rpm, it's because energy exited that flywheel.

You can quantify the energy contained in a flywheel. Lets say a given flywheel spinning at 5000rpm contained enough energy to supply a 500ftlb boost of torque for 0.25 seconds. The clutch is what determines the rate that you draw that stored energy out of the flywheel. The clutch could draw out 500ftlbs for 0.25sec, or the clutch could draw out 250ftlbs for 0.5sec. Both are the same amount of energy that gets dumped into the chassis, 500x0.25=125ftlb/sec or 250x0.5=125ftlb/sec. The difference is that an additional 250ftlbs over 0.5sec is a hell of a lot easier for the chassis to process than 500ftlbs over 0.25sec. The CT allows you to dial in the rate that the clutch pulls energy out of the effective flywheel. Rpm isn't a factor in determining the flywheel's discharge rate like it is with your adjustable clutch, which allows CT users to launch off the high side and dead hook as long as they have enough clutch.

The starting line advantage isn't flywheel weight as any added inertia boost during launch due to added weight has to be paid back as slower acceleration before you reach the finish line. The added weight thing cancels itself out in the end. The advantage comes when you can process a higher staging rpm while dead hooking without damaging the clutch. The flywheel is going to be fully charged when you cross the finish line, so any additional power you have to spend spinning up the flywheel is power being diverted from accelerating the car. Power in basically equals power out, so why start the race with the flywheel half charged when you no longer have to with the CT?

Grant
 
Last edited:
I wonder how many pages into oblivion this thread will go.
Every j par thread does. Lol
like daytime dramas or reality tv.
Titled "help me...."
Eh this is more of just a "come along for the banter" I mean ya already decided on something...so how does "help me..." fit into the equation ...?

Do it, let us know.
Maybe do it and get some results...thhhheeeeeennnnn start a thread...then it leaves no room for debate. You report it either worked..or didn't.

Remember bloomer performance and ironmike's motor... that killed his heads.
Test first, get it right.. 1st.
 
The key about the “easy peasy” thing is...... you need to make more power than what would theoretically be needed for the desired ET.
A lot of times it’s a little easier to find a few extra HP than figure out how to make the car leave hard.
I’m not 100% certain what the Blue 71 Challenger in the videos runs for a clutch, but I believe it’s a regular McLeod Borg and Beck.
There was another white Challenger there yesterday that def runs a McLeod Borg and Beck clutch and a std synchronized 833 trans.
Went 11.60@123.

I’ve seen some time slips from the blue 71 where the 60’ times were the upper 1.70’s and the ET’s were in the 11.40’s.
 
The more I look at your timeslips, the more I'm convinced the car is running about what it should with a fairly stock suspension and street tire. There may not be much more in it.

For the most part I agree with this.
Might be a relatively easy tenth or two, but with that basic overall combo....... I don’t think it has 11sec speed.
Need to find a few mph(power).

If you’re making enough power, a high 1.8x 60’ will get you solidly into the 11’s.

You’re talking about buying heads.
A 408 with decent heads and a solid cam is a slam dunk 500hp.

500hp should easily run 115+ at A body weight, unless there are major issues with the car.
 
Last edited:
To me what your explaining is a engine with a bigger than needed duration and a wider lobe separation to kill off some of the bottom end and make it up up top.Thats why i previously suggested tightening up lash to do this.It doesnt hurt anything plus its free!
 
Anything like that is certainly worth trying.

Without some videos of seeing how the car leaves it’s hard to know where it’s currently lacking.

Spinning? Bogging? Other?

The results of the clutch tamer will be interesting.

My point with the extra power is....... if the 60’s improve to mid-1.80’s...... that’s good enough for 11’s....... if you have enough motor.
But if all you have is enough motor to run 112........ you’re going to need the 60’ times to be way way better than a 1.9x, if the goal is an 11sec ET.
 
Last edited:
I wonder how many pages into oblivion this thread will go.
Every j par thread does. Lol
like daytime dramas or reality tv.
Titled "help me...."
Eh this is more of just a "come along for the banter" I mean ya already decided on something...so how does "help me..." fit into the equation ...?

Do it, let us know.
Maybe do it and get some results...thhhheeeeeennnnn start a thread...then it leaves no room for debate. You report it either worked..or didn't.

Remember bloomer performance and ironmike's motor... that killed his heads.
Test first, get it right.. 1st.
I realize there's a lot of people that want banter and it seems like I keep trying not to but people like yourself can't live without it. What you're saying is Banter. Yes it's obvious I said this.. this is a come along for the ride and let's see how this thing works kind of deal. If you don't like it that way but you can do is just wait till it's all done and read the thread and see how it turned out. Yes I'm very much doing it as I go along...
I have hopefully blocked anybody that I would potentially see those people who want to banter with me about this...
 
Anything like that is certainly worth trying.

Without some videos of seeing how the car leaves it’s hard to know where it’s currently lacking.

Spinning? Bogging? Other?

The results of the clutch tamer will be interesting.

My point with the extra power is....... if the 60’s improve to mid-1.80’s...... that’s good enough for 11’s....... if you have enough motor.
But if all you have is enough motor to run 112........ you’re going to need the 60’ times to be way way better than a 1.9x, if the goal in an 11sec ET.
I think we did talk about tightening the Lash and I did start out pretty tight just to begin with over the recommended on the cam card. I'm wondering if these guys that you're talking about with the bias-ply tires and all that have to drive their car to the track on the 65 mile-an-hour freeway for 45 minutes to an hour each way? I am running 354 rear end so I can freeway the car as well. I'm thinking that these guys that are doing these times are running 4.10's or deeper?
When I have the car with the other Cam and slicks and roll cage I also had 410 gears... And I trailer to get to the long-distance tracks...
And I've totally went to just barely revving the car pass 2k and soft dropping the clutch into a bog and a punching it in the Full Throttle so I don't break parts. And that's generally a crapshoot..
This is why I'm very hopeful for the CT to work for me...
 
I'm comparing the current slip data against the data when running slicks and a bigger cam.
It tells me the chassis is giving as much as it can in the current configuration.
The tamer may gain some 60' a 10th or two


I didn't see the time slip with slicks and the other engine combo.
 
Part of it is about how quickly the heat transfer must take place. If you were relying on convection to transfer heat into the air, aluminum works pretty well. But there isn't enough time for convection to happen with a clutch, not to mention the clutch is in a confined space. Add to that with an aluminum flywheel you are trying to transfer heat from the insert to the aluminum. There are small gaps and spaces between the two materials which act as insulators to inhibit heat transfer. Remember the heat conductive gel used when mounting some electrical components? It's used to fill those gaps and spaces to improve heat transfer between two surfaces, but that gel is not really practical for a flywheel/insert application.

Then there's the insert being attached to the aluminum, with the aluminum providing most of the structure to keep the insert flat at room temperature. When slipping, the insert absorbs heat faster than it can transfer it to the aluminum. Because the insert has little mass it's temp rises very quickly, causing it to grow at a faster rate than the aluminum. When this happens, the areas of the insert that are bolted to the aluminum are restrained somewhat compared to the areas that are not. This is causes the insert to warp, and with that warping comes loss of intimate contact between the two materials which is needed for direct heat transfer. Pretty much the point of no return as not only does the insert temps skyrocket at this point, but so do the disc temps.



The friction materials used in a clutch are basically the same as those used in a brake system. As with a brake system, they will all last a long time as long as temps are kept in check. It's the reason an oval or road course car with heavier rotors can post quicker lap times when that course requires a significant amount of braking. There's a reason you don't see steel inserts on aluminum rotors.



A flywheel is an energy storage device. The entire rotating assy is the actual effective flywheel, the part we call a flywheel is only one part of that. When you spin that flywheel up, you are charging it with energy. That energy contained is a function of the flywheel's rpm. The more energy you charge it with, the faster it will spin. And when a flywheel loses rpm, it's because energy exited that flywheel.

You can quantify the energy contained in a flywheel. Lets say a given flywheel spinning at 5000rpm contained enough energy to supply a 500ftlb boost of torque for 0.25 seconds. The clutch is what determines the rate that you draw that stored energy out of the flywheel. The clutch could draw out 500ftlbs for 0.25sec, or the clutch could draw out 250ftlbs for 0.5sec. Both are the same amount of energy that gets dumped into the chassis, 500x0.25=125ftlb/sec or 250x0.5=125ftlb/sec. The difference is that an additional 250ftlbs over 0.5sec is a hell of a lot easier for the chassis to process than 500ftlbs over 0.25sec. The CT allows you to dial in the rate that the clutch pulls energy out of the effective flywheel. Rpm isn't a factor in determining the flywheel's discharge rate like it is with your adjustable clutch, which allows CT users to launch off the high side and dead hook as long as they have enough clutch.

The starting line advantage isn't flywheel weight as any added inertia boost during launch due to added weight has to be paid back as slower acceleration before you reach the finish line. The added weight thing cancels itself out in the end. The advantage comes when you can process a higher staging rpm while dead hooking without damaging the clutch. The flywheel is going to be fully charged when you cross the finish line, so any additional power you have to spend spinning up the flywheel is power being diverted from accelerating the car. Power in basically equals power out, so why start the race with the flywheel half charged when you no longer have to with the CT?

Grant




I've read all this before. I can tell you I started out with a still flywheel and crap you say they use on brakes. The steel FW will warp with very little slippage. 20 years ago, I was still stuck with a steel FW. I could get 6, maybe 8 passes out of a disc. I had 3. One in the car, one on the way back to Ram and the other at the shop, ready to go in. 20 runs and I had to surface the FW.

When I finally went to sintered iron, I could wear out a disc (150 passes) and throw a new disc in a go. The aluminum FW didn't warp.

So we must live in alternative worlds. My experience doesn't match your theory.

I stand by using the lightest FW most guys can find, and that's usually 11-15 pounds. That's plenty when you add in the disc and pressure plate.
 
I'm wondering if these guys that you're talking about with the bias-ply tires and all that have to drive their car to the track on the 65 mile-an-hour freeway for 45 minutes to an hour each way? I am running 354 rear end so I can freeway the car as well. I'm thinking that these guys that are doing these times are running 4.10's or deeper?

The blue and white challengers that were running 11’s this past weekend both run 3.73’s.

But the thing you’re not grasping is...... they don’t have the benefit of doing whatever they want to the car.
You don’t think if they were running headers and drag radials that they could eek out better ET’s?

The main point I’m making is...... “If” you have enough power to run 116+mph(which is easier to do when you don’t have to run ex manifolds and the stock induction), and you can at least put together a 60’ time in the 1.80’s(should be no problemo with drag radials)....... you can run 11’s.

I will add this, from your description of the burnout process....... IMO that’s where most of the inconsistency in the 60’ is coming from.

Again....... if the speed doesn’t improve above the 112 mark, the 60’ times are going to need to get much better than those 1.9’s to see an 11.

Will the clutch tamer do that for you?
I guess we’re all going to find out.
 
I've read all this before. I can tell you I started out with a still flywheel and crap you say they use on brakes. The steel FW will warp with very little slippage. 20 years ago, I was still stuck with a steel FW. I could get 6, maybe 8 passes out of a disc. I had 3. One in the car, one on the way back to Ram and the other at the shop, ready to go in. 20 runs and I had to surface the FW.

When I finally went to sintered iron, I could wear out a disc (150 passes) and throw a new disc in a go. The aluminum FW didn't warp.

So we must live in alternative worlds. My experience doesn't match your theory.

I stand by using the lightest FW most guys can find, and that's usually 11-15 pounds. That's plenty when you add in the disc and pressure plate.

I don't think you leaned on your clutches 20 years ago as much as I lean on mine now. From my perspective, your memory does not match my experience.

Grant
 
The blue and white challengers that were running 11’s this past weekend both run 3.73’s.

But the thing you’re not grasping is...... they don’t have the benefit of doing whatever they want to the car.
You don’t think if they were running headers and drag radials that they could eek out better ET’s?

The main point I’m making is...... “If” you have enough power to run 116+mph(which is easier to do when you don’t have to run ex manifolds and the stock induction), and you can at least put together a 60’ time in the 1.80’s(should be no problemo with drag radials)....... you can run 11’s.

I will add this, from your description of the burnout process....... IMO that’s where most of the inconsistency in the 60’ is coming from.

Again....... if the speed doesn’t improve above the 112 mark, the 60’ times are going to need to get much better than those 1.9’s to see an 11.

Will the clutch tamer do that for you?
I guess we’re all going to find out.
I understand what you're saying about doing it with more speed. again I just can't get enough practice to get the kind of consistency with the clutch at lunch that I need to get the 1.8 60 foot. I don't believe it's the tires fault the SS Springs fault or the cheap Summit drag shocks fault or the fault of the traction bars either. I believe it's me not being experienced enough to slip the clutch correctly. Driving the car around and doing burn offs and squeal on the tires at lights and any other kind of driving just isn't the same as a extremely calculated clutch slip at a certain RPM to do a certain thing at a certain track.
Even if I do build more horsepower or make more horsepower and reach my goal of 11.9 consistently I want to be consistent at that as well not be all over the place with my 11.9 but be at an 11.92-5 range consistently... Even like all the coyote reviews say if anyting not to go faster but as a tool to keep things consistent. Of course I do have my irons in the fire for more horsepower but I've learned if I'm going to bracket race I need consistency first and foremost and I'm hoping this helps me in that direction.
I understand they don't have the privilege of putting all kinds of aftermarket parts on their cars but I wonder if their privileged to all of the internal Trade Secrets and the budget and knowledge to carry them out?
Also I wouldn't get anybody's hopes up and assume that we're all going to see what happens...
 
I don't think you leaned on your clutches 20 years ago as much as I lean on mine now. From my perspective, your memory does not match my experience.

Grant
When I read this thread I'm missing 3 post-- 211, 212, and 213...
I hope they're having a good conversation on how to tame "MY" four-speed Stroker...LOL...
Well like that commercial how many licks does it take to get to the center of a lollipop? Crunch! The world may never know....
 
Last edited:
I know there's at least one electrical thing that I need to do with the two step to make all this work...
 
I don't think you leaned on your clutches 20 years ago as much as I lean on mine now. From my perspective, your memory does not match my experience.

Grant


LOL. It's not my memory. And it hasn't been 20 years.

We can agree to disagree. Keep telling people to use heavy flywheels and not to buy an adjustable clutch, and I'll keep telling them the opposite.

In the end, your still wrong. Just like the multitude out there who still set their power valve opening by idle vacuum. Same thing, yet different.
 
I can tell you the fastest stick car I've ever had any real experience with didn't slip the clutch. NHRA SE record holder, heavy car, making under 500hp. 9" slicks. leaf springs, traction bars, and very expensive for the times double adjustable shocks. Ram 3 finger PP and I think sintered iron disc. (based on memory...) 7200 on the 2step - he would slip his foot off the pedal.
 
When I read this thread I'm missing 3 post-- 111, 112, and 113...
I hope they're having a good conversation on how to tame "MY" four-speed Stroker...LOL...
Well like that commercial how many licks does it take to get to the center of a lollipop? Crunch! The world may never know....


Since you can't see the posts, I'll help you out. It's not about YOU. It's about the other people who may read this thread.
 
I can tell you the fastest stick car I've ever had any real experience with didn't slip the clutch. NHRA SE record holder, heavy car, making under 500hp. 9" slicks. leaf springs, traction bars, and very expensive for the times double adjustable shocks. Ram 3 finger PP and I think sintered iron disc. (based on memory...) 7200 on the 2step - he would slip his foot off the pedal.


He didn't slip it, but he damn sure controlled the application of the clutch with his pressure plate. That's two different things. And you can bet all you have, all I have and anything you can make up that he wasn't running a heavy flywheel.

The fact that fools still argue this stuff is amazing.
 
Oh no, light aluminum flywheel with a steel insert. And yes, the pressure plate had a twin just in case, and had a special setup for him that took him some time to get right working with Hays. Ran a Jericho, and it was 11-teens at about 480hp. A very efficient car with a truly hyper-focused and intelligent driver.

The reason I said that is Jpar seems to think he should be slipping something on the launch. IMO, HE shouldn't. it should be in the pressure plate/disc/flywheel relationship and the chassis needs some adjustability to be maximized each time a clutch change proves fruitful. It takes a lot of time and money to get a car like that to get scienced out. And if you change a variable (he would add weight and run other classes) it gets a little more complicated.

I don't think doing anything by the pedal will really do much more than mask issues, at the expense of the disc. But again - I'll wait and see.
 
I understand what you're saying about doing it with more speed. again I just can't get enough practice to get the kind of consistency with the clutch at lunch that I need to get the 1.8 60 foot. I don't believe it's the tires fault the SS Springs fault or the cheap Summit drag shocks fault or the fault of the traction bars either. I believe it's me not being experienced enough to slip the clutch correctly. Driving the car around and doing burn offs and squeal on the tires at lights and any other kind of driving just isn't the same as a extremely calculated clutch slip at a certain RPM to do a certain thing at a certain track.
Even if I do build more horsepower or make more horsepower and reach my goal of 11.9 consistently I want to be consistent at that as well not be all over the place with my 11.9 but be at an 11.92-5 range consistently... Even like all the coyote reviews say if anyting not to go faster but as a tool to keep things consistent. Of course I do have my irons in the fire for more horsepower but I've learned if I'm going to bracket race I need consistency first and foremost and I'm hoping this helps me in that direction.
I understand they don't have the privilege of putting all kinds of aftermarket parts on their cars but I wonder if their privileged to all of the internal Trade Secrets and the budget and knowledge to carry them out?
Also I wouldn't get anybody's hopes up and assume that we're all going to see what happens...



I'm quoting this post because this is a summation of all the issues in one, easy to read, simple post.

This is exactly how not to do it. How do I know this? Because it's how we all do it. It's how we start. Less than 1% of the car out there are sticks. Yet 90% of the keyboard heroes want to tell the stick guys how to do it.

It IS the tires. It IS the junk SS springs (had mine on for less than a month). It IS stone headed things like the pinion snubber (LOL @ at the guys who think these things work...don't post up your buddy running his...it doesn't matter he's giving up at a minimum of .2 with that crap). It IS cheap, non adjustable or 90/10 or 9 way shocks. It IS you can't tune your clutch so you try and slip the clutch. It IS your fly wheel weight is killing the tire so you have to lower the RPM. There isn't one clutch guy worth a damn in the country who will tell you slipping the clutch is a good thing.


It's all those things. They all matter. Any time you cut a corner with a clutch car, you pay a huge stupid tax. In broken parts, aborted runs, lack of consistency and just pure frustration.

It all matters. How do you control the motion of the rear spring if you can't tune the shock? That's like a carb without changeable jets. Who would try that?

For the guys with sticks, you have to know you just can't cut corners.

Get a quality clutch. You can now buy double adjustable shocks for practically nothing. You can buy light flywheels. You can get quality springs and taxation bars.

Do that, and you can tune the chassis and have fun and be competitive. Try cutting corners and you'll be on the internet taking advice from guys who've never drag races a clutch car in their lives.
 
-
Back
Top