why do you guy's like a turbo vs a centrif Supcharger?

[overboost]

It depends on what your looking for. Me and my brother have had this conversation millions of times. If you want almost instant power you want a supercharger. If you want more efficient power you want a turbo.
IMHO, I would go with both. Twin charging. I know someone said why do that, well if you have ever used an oxy fuel torch, its the same concept. You can turn up the fuel and have an inefficient flame or can turn the oxygen up too high and the flame goes away or you can get the right mixture and have raw, efficient, "heat."
With twin charging you get the benefits of both, you get the efficient-ness of a turbo and the almost instant power of a super.
Also, a lot of folks think that a turbo in built for the motor, I don't think this is true. You can take a turbo for a TD and slap it on a 340 and it will blow up unless you build it right and you can bluild all your plumbing.
Correct me if i'm wrong, please

turbos and plumbing don't blow up motors tunes do. even a castrophic failure of wheels(rarely happens on MOST applications) IF the car is intercooled will have very little to almost no ingestion of parts. the bearings in the turbo IF they chewed out would be picked up by the oil filter. i have seen more motor failures destroy a turbo than turbo failures destroy an engine. BOOST with out enough fuel that is another story been there done that.

an engine without forged internals or beefier pieces will take it IF there is enough fuel and boost is not out of sight.

i currently have chryslers weakest turbo motor running 20 psi and it had 100k on it when i turned up the wick. it now has at least 165k on it. it is nothing special in the lower end cast piston,cast crank,cast lightweight rods but it has plenty of fuel i run and egt and wideband to monitor what is happening as well as read the plugs . basics help keep things together as well as paying attention to what you are doing.

Norm

 

[rumblefish360]

Your 10 hp figure is a joke right? The Hp to turn a blower is based on the same principle you state later in your post. The hp required to turn a supercharger is based on how much boost its making. According to Procharger a F3R on a motor I built at 24 psi is taking 100 hp ( and a top fuel motor takes 1000hp at 40 pounds of boost) to turn. That is the reason for a 3 inch cog tooth belt. If it took 10 hp you would be able to use a v belt and a small one at that.

yes and no, but rmostly no, no joke. A centrifcal unit uses a V belt. Sorry, I thought that was the charger we were talking about. And yes, I understand that the more power your making, the more power loss there will be in turning the charger.

How many guys here running 24 psi on the street? Come on now, hands up!!!

A turbo does create back pressure, thats true. However a turbo motor works on pressure differential. Lets say a N/A motor has 2 psi pressure in the exhaust while , lets say for the sake of another arguement, the intake has 0 psi. So a turbo motor on 22 pounds of boost has 5 pounds of back pressure in the header you still have a 17 pound pressure difference. Hence the general consensus that turbos are "free" HP. I honestly can say that turbo power is free

I busted up the quote to stop you right there. Your math states otherwise against free power.

because engines create heat and in creating this heat is how hp is made and a turbo takes advantage of the expanding gases to create even more wheel speed in the turbo. Not to mention when the turbo is up to speed since it is allowed to accelerate past the speed at which the exhaust is flowing it can actually have a scavenging effect.

The speed of the impella is moving faster than the exhaust gas is pushing it though it takes exhaust gas to move it?
Sorry, the only time I see this happening is under deceleration.
I do notsee expandinggasses being a huge or little factor in movingthe impella faster than the gasses themselfs turning the impeller.

Centrifugal superchargers are friggin awesome as well as a turbo motor. Both make big power, both are not easy power, there is always a certain amount of pain and suffering to make big power.

As is allways the case, LOL, yep, very true. Pressure ethier way is good.

Check it out, I recommend the book "maximum boost" by Corky Bell for some light reading to support what i just wrote.

OK. (I just don't beileve everything I read.)

I don't know what any of this imaginary equipment is or what it does,

Hey Joe!

Imagine a turbo or centrical super charger on a stand next to the engine being dyno'd. This unit is not hooked up to the engine, but was unsed prior to dyno the engine for the base line power graph. The unit being used. It has a seperate power surply to operate, but yet it is surplying the engine with boost. This will compare the engine under boost without the engine turning the supercharger or pushing exhaust gas to turn the turbo.

Take these results and compare. Then you'll see the loss between the two units and the units themselfs.

Turbos still only use wasted energy to operate,

Otherwise wasted energy. I ot that.

off of boost zero backpressure period.

Sorry, missed this one.

I am so tired of trying to explain this to you and you don't seem to want to understand no matter how many times or how many people try to help you. No hard feelings but I give up sorry dude but you hurt my head.

It's not wanting to understand, I just do not beileve a turbo is an actual "FREE" HP maker.

Ittakes power, some sort of power to turn the turbo. It doesn't magicaly spin by itself. Since the exhaust gasses spin the turbo, (which otherwise would have been wasted) it takes a certain amount of pressure to spin the impeller. This pressure is now creating back pressure. Power loss!

And of course, no hard feelings. Sending you some Advil and a cool drink ... ;)

Just dont think I'm anti turbo!

 

[Mad Dart]

The reason I like the Turbo over the Supercharger is you can adjust the boost on the fly like stated earlier and in most applications you can leave the hood stock for the sleeper affect.
The installation of the Turbo is more difficult with all the plumbing but I believe after the install it is easier and instant to create more power with the turn of a knob under the dash. On an EFI application change up the tune in less than a few minutes and you are done without scratching up your car and getting dirty changing pulleys and belts. The Turbo guy has already ran 6 more times down the track with increased boost/power before the Supercharger guy has opened his tool box if he even feels like doing it.

When the Turbo guy is done he turns down the knob or changes the program back to where it was, plugs in the Ipod and drives 125 miles home rocking out all the way to Van Halen! haaaa

 

[rumblefish360]

Lets just go with both having computers for the tune.

Changing a pulley is a simple ... how many bolt operation?
Or is it I can adjust the by-pass valve like a turbo set up ... hummmm

If this is your big flag waver of a winner thing to shout about ............


Parry!

 

[Mad Dart]

Lets just go with both having computers for the tune.

Changing a pulley is a simple ... how many bolt operation?
Or is it I can adjust the by-pass valve like a turbo set up ... hummmm

If this is your big flag waver of a winner thing to shout about ............


Parry!

On a roots style possible. Centrifugal Not.
Remember alot of guy's don't wrench on their own cars so a Pulley Change may also mean the car goes back to the shop. Blow Thru/Carbed on both we both know twisting a knob is easier than lifting a hood.

This is not a Flag Waiver, come on man. I like both and to each their own.
As someone else say's "Pick your Parts Pay your $$"

Its all good!

 

[rumblefish360]

On a roots style possible. Centrifugal Not.

Incorrect. What your saying here is that a hair dryer blower can not be set up to produce more psi than as delivered.

Let me understand this one. If the hair dryer comes with a pulley designed for 6 - 7 psi, for the street, it can not be changed for more psi.

Remember alot of guy's don't wrench on their own cars so a Pulley Change may also mean the car goes back to the shop.

Would anybody here care to admit that changing a pulley, a possible, 3 bolt operation (?) is beyond there abilty?
Come on now Mad, seriously. Is this the best you can do? A pulley change is beyond a guys abilty so it goes to the shop? Seriously now, come on man.

Blow Thru/Carbed on both we both know twisting a knob is easier than lifting a hood.

Blow through or FI, I mentioned earlier, "Lets just go with both having computers for the tune" Lets say there both FI engines.
This can not be done with a hairdryer blower? LOL! LMAO!!!!!

This is not a Flag Waiver, come on man. I like both and to each their own.
As someone else say's "Pick your Parts Pay your $$"

Then the mention was too .... do what now? For what?????
Sure seemed like flag waver stuff to me. Or is it your just trying convince someone out there of something.
If not, why mention it?

Its all good!

Indeed it is :burnout:

 

[LXguy]

Turbochargers also experience lower hp losses associated with higher altitude than superchargers.

Turbos are quieter. Turbos don't have belt slip..

If you look at the sanction racing classes where turbos run against centrifugal superchargers, the turbo cars are always very restricted on sizing and have to run at higher weight than the superchargers. Meaning, turbos make more power.

Look at the fast Outlaw and Drag Radial cars...turbo.

That said, how fast do you want to go? A bolt on centrifugal kit with a pulley change can supply enough CFM to put a half-*** car in the tens.

EDIT: And messing with the exhaust is always the worst part of working on an A-body. LOL

As for me, I like nitrous...

 

[Mad Dart]

WOW...Rumble, I was talking about the Bypass valve adjustment for more boost with a centrifugal type Super Charger, Vortec, Paxton etc.

Yes I am dead serious about the guy who has his Supercharger or Turbo installed by someone. Most if they do will not want to wrench on their cars, this is a Fact. I seen it for 10 Years Straight in the Dunebuggy scene.

You are taking mostly everything I said out of context.

This thread is called. "why do you guy's like a turbo vs a centrif Supcharger?"

So I answered the question.

 

[V-100]

It's called twin-charged, been happening for quite sometime, extremely expensive however. Not really aware of any kits available for it, meaning it requires some very pricey complex 1off parts.

Twin-Charged Ogura Clutch Fairlady-Z / 350Z (Z33) - YouTube

Lancia Delta S4 anybody? Such a bad **** that the sanctioning rally body outlawed Group B rally racing...cars literally jumping into the trees and killing drivers:wack:

 

[turbodart68]

First I want to say that this debate is good, but Rumble you are mis-informed. I realize that you dont believe what you read. So are you speaking from experience? I am. I absolutely love the Procharger and or a roots blower. They have their advantages. I have built many of all styles including big nitrous motors! There is nothing more awesome than a 500 hit of nitrous! With that said a roots blower is instant response. A centrifugal thunders as RPM increases and is much like a turbo. Now a turbo is endless power! It just keeps going. Ask any of the guys here that have a turbo V8 Mopar and then ask for a ride and you will believe. The problem with centrifugal superchargers is the belt system. No one has run a V belt since the Kennedy administration. The first centrifugal blower motor I built had a D1SC Procharger. It has a 6 rib serpentine belt and anything over 10 pounds of boost the belt slips. Oh and I have news for you, there are a ton of people running 24 pounds or more on the street, just because you dont believe it doesn't people dont do it. Look around next time your at a drag strip and dont just look at the Mopars. I have at least a dozen friends running more than 20 pounds of boost on the street, on pump gas, with methanol/water injection. I believe that you dont believe what you read. Try reading a book sometime its quite enlightening.


Oh and the exhaust gas expanding? Its the same principle that scavenging works on. Ever heard of that? Its all in that book.

 

[overboost]

Lancia Delta S4 anybody? Such a bad **** that the sanctioning rally body outlawed Group B rally racing...cars literally jumping into the trees and killing drivers:wack:

yes very sick car !!!!!but the looks of an omni ehhhh not so.

Norm

 

[turboJoe]

yes and no, but rmostly no, no joke. A centrifcal unit uses a V belt. Sorry, I thought that was the charger we were talking about. And yes, I understand that the more power your making, the more power loss there will be in turning the charger.

How many guys here running 24 psi on the street? Come on now, hands up!!!

I busted up the quote to stop you right there. Your math states otherwise against free power.




The speed of the impella is moving faster than the exhaust gas is pushing it though it takes exhaust gas to move it?
Sorry, the only time I see this happening is under deceleration.
I do notsee expandinggasses being a huge or little factor in movingthe impella faster than the gasses themselfs turning the impeller.






As is allways the case, LOL, yep, very true. Pressure ethier way is good.




OK. (I just don't beileve everything I read.)

Hey Joe!

Imagine a turbo or centrical super charger on a stand next to the engine being dyno'd. This unit is not hooked up to the engine, but was unsed prior to dyno the engine for the base line power graph. The unit being used. It has a seperate power surply to operate, but yet it is surplying the engine with boost. This will compare the engine under boost without the engine turning the supercharger or pushing exhaust gas to turn the turbo.

Take these results and compare. Then you'll see the loss between the two units and the units themselfs.


Otherwise wasted energy. I ot that.


Sorry, missed this one.



It's not wanting to understand, I just do not beileve a turbo is an actual "FREE" HP maker.

Ittakes power, some sort of power to turn the turbo. It doesn't magicaly spin by itself. Since the exhaust gasses spin the turbo, (which otherwise would have been wasted) it takes a certain amount of pressure to spin the impeller. This pressure is now creating back pressure. Power loss!

And of course, no hard feelings. Sending you some Advil and a cool drink ... ;)

Just dont think I'm anti turbo!

Ok... So I have thought about it and there is something called a Hot Flow Bench that turbo manufacturers will use to see what kind of air a turbo will move at set pressure differintials by doing this they can tell you at what psi it will make the coolest air charge and how much boost it is capable of to check its effeciancy and anti surge capabuilities, I guess in theory you could do this to a N/A motor to simulate boost for a turbo and then the same for a blower on the same motor, All things being the same open headers on a dyno there should be no back pressure for either motor. With that said, At a 1:1 pressure differntial the turbo motor is making more power with its spent energy than its using to make it And a blower motor makes alot of power only using some to produce it either way your making more power than you started off with and making alot more that is using to make it. I personally like turbos better but dont have anything against blowers either, If blowers were not so outragiously priced I would have one by now ( I hope china is listining ) In my first hand exsperiance turbos come on alot harder (tourqe wise ) than a blower of the same boost level most blowers keep coming with the rpms where a turbo comes on early and stays there. Sorry if I seemed bent out of shape but I feel like were beating a dead horse with the whole back pressure thing.

Joe,

Sorry about the spelling but my computer at work wont let me download the spell check.

 

[rumblefish360]

WOW...Rumble, I was talking about the Bypass valve adjustment for more boost with a centrifugal type Super Charger, Vortec, Paxton etc.

I read it as on the turbo charger and not able to be done on a charger.

Yes I am dead serious about the guy who has his Supercharger or Turbo installed by someone. Most if they do will not want to wrench on their cars, this is a Fact. I seen it for 10 Years Straight in the Dunebuggy scene.

While many guys do simply pay for work to be done, I highly doubt most do.
Understanding your machinery and how it works as well as a minor adjustment to it, trouble shoot it or just simply get home if it fails should be a bare min. of understanding among everyone who even considers it much less does it.
It's not like a pacemaker in the body.

Fact in your neck of the woods. Around here, it's a big pride part to know and continue to be able to wrench on your own car should the need arise.

The way you (Or I takeit) is everyone around your neck of the woods is lame with a wrench. (Sorry, it's the way I read it.)

You are taking mostly everything I said out of context.

Sorry buddy, didn't mean to twist what I read, it's just the way I understand it. Sorry again.

This thread is called. "why do you guy's like a turbo vs a centrif Supcharger?"

So I answered the question.

Indeed!

 

[rumblefish360]

So are you speaking from experience?

no

I am.

excellent, have at it. (Wheres that popcorn eating smiley!?):happy1:
Ahh, there we go.

I absolutely love the Procharger and or a roots blower. They have their advantages. I have built many of all styles including big nitrous motors! There is nothing more awesome than a 500 hit of nitrous! With that said a roots blower is instant response. A centrifugal thunders as RPM increases and is much like a turbo. Now a turbo is endless power! It just keeps going. Ask any of the guys here that have a turbo V8 Mopar and then ask for a ride and you will believe. The problem with centrifugal superchargers is the belt system. No one has run a V belt since the Kennedy administration. The first centrifugal blower motor I built had a D1SC Procharger. It has a 6 rib serpentine belt and anything over 10 pounds of boost the belt slips. Oh and I have news for you, there are a ton of people running 24 pounds or more on the street, just because you dont believe it doesn't people dont do it. Look around next time your at a drag strip and dont just look at the Mopars. I have at least a dozen friends running more than 20 pounds of boost on the street, on pump gas, with methanol/water injection. I believe that you dont believe what you read. Try reading a book sometime its quite enlightening.

I started to read, but have not been able to get far in the book;
HPBooks Turbochargers by Hugh Macinnes.
After starting and stopping it 10 times, ya know, life gets in the way crap.

Oh and the exhaust gas expanding? Its the same principle that scavenging works on. Ever heard of that? Its all in that book.

Have I ever heard of that?!?! Oh! how snarky. :colors: LOL HA ha ha

Ok... So I have thought about it and there is something called a Hot Flow Bench that turbo manufacturers will use to see what kind of air a turbo will move at set pressure differintials by doing this they can tell you at what psi it will make the coolest air charge and how much boost it is capable of to check its effeciancy and anti surge capabuilities, I guess in theory you could do this to a N/A motor to simulate boost for a turbo and then the same for a blower on the same motor, All things being the same open headers on a dyno there should be no back pressure for either motor. With that said, At a 1:1 pressure differntial the turbo motor is making more power with its spent energy than its using to make it And a blower motor makes alot of power only using some to produce it either way your making more power than you started off with and making alot more that is using to make it. I personally like turbos better but dont have anything against blowers either, If blowers were not so outragiously priced I would have one by now ( I hope china is listining ) In my first hand exsperiance turbos come on alot harder (tourqe wise ) than a blower of the same boost level most blowers keep coming with the rpms where a turbo comes on early and stays there. Sorry if I seemed bent out of shape but I feel like were beating a dead horse with the whole back pressure thing.

Joe,

Sorry about the spelling but my computer at work wont let me download the spell check.

JOE! Thanks. No worries. OH, and by the way;

( I hope china is listining )

&

The problem with centrifugal superchargers is the belt system. No one has run a V belt since the Kennedy administration.

LOL AND OMG! THAT WAS FUNNY!!!!!

THANK YOU, I soo needed that! I haven't had a good giggle behind this thing since.... Oh nevermind, I'll just get in trouble if I told everybody.....

 

[Burntorange70]

I can change out a pulley. But then I also cut two of them in half and matted them together to get the correct number of ribs I needed in that diamiter pulley and also made a pulley plate from scratch :geek:


Not that I don't like Turbos because I do. Last sand car had a rotory with a turbo running 22 pis and was 1500LB rayer: That sucker was a killer and we could not get any one to race us in very short order.

Doing a little change up and running a twin screw this time.


To each there own is about all I can say. :burnout:

 

[overboost]

still have to do something on a super AND have the pulley on hand if not............NOT ABLE TO HAVE MORE BOOST........turbo twist a knob it will make as much as you WANT even out of it's "design" map ,once designed and set up it is basically infinetely adjustable. just keep on top of the tune.

 

[Mad Dart]

I can change out a pulley. But then I also cut two of them in half and matted them together to get the correct number of ribs I needed in that diamiter pulley and also made a pulley plate from scratch :geek:


Not that I don't like Turbos because I do. Last sand car had a rotory with a turbo running 22 pis and was 1500LB rayer: That sucker was a killer and we could not get any one to race us in very short order.

Doing a little change up and running a twin screw this time.


To each there own is about all I can say. :burnout:

That is a mean looking package!

 

[rumblefish360]

still have to do something on a super AND have the pulley on hand if not............[NOT ABLE TO HAVE MORE BOOST........turbo twist a knob it will make as much as you WANT even out of it's "design" map ,once designed and set up it is basically infinetely adjustable. just keep on top of the tune.

So, you can't change the pulley to start with for more boost and bleed it off with the by-pass valve?

The turbo can have the by-pass valve turned up for more, why not the reverse?

 

[Mad Dart]

So, you can't change the pulley to start with for more boost and bleed it off with the by-pass valve?

The turbo can have the by-pass valve turned up for more, why not the reverse?

On a Turbo you bleed it off to reduce boost and keep it closed to increase it with the Wastegate or Gates that are Controlled Electonically "EFI" or Manually with Boost Controller "Blow Thru Carb"

The bypass valve's job is to bleed off the boost in the intake track when the throttle plate is closed, this is so the Compressor does not get abused and reduces compressor surge. The bypass or pop off valve should stay closed on boost while the throttle is open until the throttle is let loose and the Throttle Plate closes. Swoooshhhhhhhh sound.

 

[Mad Dart]

I read it as on the turbo charger and not able to be done on a charger.



While many guys do simply pay for work to be done, I highly doubt most do.
Understanding your machinery and how it works as well as a minor adjustment to it, trouble shoot it or just simply get home if it fails should be a bare min. of understanding among everyone who even considers it much less does it.
It's not like a pacemaker in the body.

Fact in your neck of the woods. Around here, it's a big pride part to know and continue to be able to wrench on your own car should the need arise.

The way you (Or I takeit) is everyone around your neck of the woods is lame with a wrench. (Sorry, it's the way I read it.)


Sorry buddy, didn't mean to twist what I read, it's just the way I understand it. Sorry again.



Indeed!

I understand your position about the standard wrenching on your car but when a guy spends 10-20K for someone to install a Turbo Set up they are usually Married to the Builder/Tuner. I know it sounds weird but it is true in most cases.
We are not talking a naturally aspirated engine that gets tuned with a screw driver, most of these builds are pretty complex and guys that pay that kind of money are afraid to mess with it. Reason being is, lean it out and BOOM, make a mistake, BOOM, there is a very small widow for error unlike an NA Build.

 

[crazy 340]

when I began to work at the ferd dealer maybe 8 yeras ago a guy there with a stang was telling me that turbo was the best no lost of power no noise and bla bla bla

like some of you know before that job I was driving a truck and told that guy if he wanna come with me for a ride in a truck he said yap why not

after 3 hours of drive he told me ( now I understand why you hate turbo)
just the wissel of the turbo ...

if it was so great the guy making the big HP number would have use it
instead they use blower

the big down fall of a blower is the price like said earlier maybe the chinese will understand and begin to fab some at lower cost like they do now for turbo set up

the down fall of a turbo you need all kind of piping,cut the car in every place possible to get those turbo and piping under the hood

for me turbo,blower,nitrous as long as its fast and look good
but when I have the cash I know what I will instal BLOWER
[ame="http://vimeo.com/4717580"]Wild Ride Motorsports Top Dragster First Warm-Up on Vimeo[/ame]

 

[Burntorange70]

I understand your position about the standard wrenching on your car but when a guy spends 10-20K for someone to install a Turbo Set up they are usually Married to the Builder/Tuner. I know it sounds weird but it is true in most cases.
We are not talking a naturally aspirated engine that gets tuned with a screw driver, most of these builds are pretty complex and guys that pay that kind of money are afraid to mess with it. Reason being is, lean it out and BOOM, make a mistake, BOOM, there is a very small widow for error unlike an NA Build.

Ya you can get a laptop and jack with the tune all you want but with out that dyno it is just a shot in the dark. Change some thing and it needs tuned again.

 

[Mad Dart]

Ya you can get a laptop and jack with the tune all you want but with out that dyno it is just a shot in the dark. Change some thing and it needs tuned again.

Exactly, that's why guys including myself will have multiple tunes after they step off the dyno. You save those tunes and can easily just pop a new tune in. You can always fine tune it at the track or street by referencing your data log that keeps track of AIr fuel ratio, fuel pressure and a host of other things that you choose to log, rpm etc to watch for converter slippage or whatever.

For example.

1 tune for 15 lbs of boost with meth injection to kick in at say 8psi on pump fuel.
Another for more timing, timed NOS for the launch and boost limited to 6lbs at launch NOS to shut off when boost hits 10 psi max boost is 22psi on say e85. Etc etc

 

[overboost]

On a Turbo you bleed it off to reduce boost and keep it closed to increase it with the Wastegate or Gates that are Controlled Electonically "EFI" or Manually with Boost Controller "Blow Thru Carb"

The bypass valve's job is to bleed off the boost in the intake track when the throttle plate is closed, this is so the Compressor does not get abused and reduces compressor surge. The bypass or pop off valve should stay closed on boost while the throttle is open until the throttle is let loose and the Throttle Plate closes. Swoooshhhhhhhh sound.

exactly by pass valve does not control boost only excess boost in the intake tract it "by passes" it away from the turbo and closed throttle plates. a boost controller incrementally increases boost. any wastegate wether on a fi or carb car can be controlled manually


not all calibrations are set exactly at a certain boost level. the one currently in my car is set for low boost of 18(i can run down as low as i want) with spark and fuel tables to 29 turn the knob and away we go BUT i still need to pay attention to the gauges. i am not saying i am making the most power possible either without data logging and adjusting the tables but they are pretty spot on. lane changes with the throttle always scares oncoming traffic hahahahahaha

Norm

 

[Southernman]

Guys, this is a great discussion and I think it's great that we can all come together to discuss 'preferences' with pros and cons of each configuration.

As a guy whose ran roots superchargers over the years, I can tell you the neck snapping throttle response is something you'll always appreciate, but roots style supercharges consume about 10% of your total HP to drive. A top fuel car uses about 800-1000 HP to drive a supercharger - to make 8000 HP and they are VERY hard on engine and driveline components.

However, at the end of the day, it's a fact that the most efficient means of pressurizing an engine is via turbo-charging. Even as roots supercharger have their...roots...in diesel powerplants, you'd be hard pressed to find a OTR truck mfg that doesn't employ a turbo to boost power and fuel efficiency.

Also, there is a reason turbos deliver "free" power:

As air enter the center of a turbocharger, that air is slung to outer most area of the turbo, where "centrifigual" force causes it to be compressed. This results in a higher volume of air being delivered to the engine. Not only is the air being compressed, but, because air has "weight", the turbo actually pumps more air volume per revolution than a naturally aspirated engine ever could.

So, in reality, it's the closest thing to free horsepower you can drive (i.e. the air volume on induction side of the turbo will always exceed the volume of air being used to drive it) versus frictional losses through a mechanical supercharger. In other words, it gives much more than it takes (in terms of HP) and the parasitic losses are almost zero.

Also, many of us witnessed this years ago; Guys like Gale Banks, Kenny Duttweiller, and a slew of others attempted to participate in Pro-Stock drag racing back in the 80's - with turbo-charged V6's. They were quickly outlawed from participating, and there was never an option for them to compete within their own division. You know why ?

Because, at a time when 500 cu.in. Pro Stockers were the rage of quarter mile fans, the turbo guys showed up with turbo charged 231 cu.in. V6's and handily out performed the best performing cars in the Pro Stock ranks - and you couldn't even hear them running down the track. The latter is also why you won't see them any time soon, as NHRA quickly outlawed them, claiming the fans won't be interested in "quiet" cars, and big noise sells tickets. I personally think it was an embarrassment to the NA guys, but who knows...

I watched this happen at Rockingham years ago, and after doing some research, found out Banks and other had plans to enter top fuel with twin turbos and compound setup, which would have not only been capable of annhialating the nitro crowd - but they would have done it while being low maintenance and easy on parts. They even built new rails in anticipation they would be accepted into the ranks, but to no avail. Again, NHRA stated they wouldn't be of interest to the fans and quickly banned them from Top Fuel, because fire and noise sells tickets ! Truth is, those cars would have quickly dominated the division and that would have had profound implications to racers and the vendors that cater to them.

Another good analogy is Indy racing. Those cars are limited to 200 cu.in. and make nearly 1000 HP - using turbos. They shift at ~ 16,000 to 18,000 rpms and they run well on the other side of 10,000 rpms for an entire race. The power to weight advantage of turbos has been exploited by Europeans for many decades now, and there hasn't been a positive displacement blower used in Indy since I can remember. Turbo technology is a well proven technology - in the right hands.

At the end of the day, turbos are king, and anyone intimately involved with pressurized applications knows it. However, I like the looks and sound of the positive displacement blowers, so that's what I buy. But today's turbo technology has progressed to the point of nearly matching a roots for neck snapping torque and the newest versions can supply HUGE boost without requiring high dollar intercoolers etc, so my next boosted project will probably be a turbo build.

The ability to cruise (under the radar) and attain reasonable fuel mileage and the stealthiness of knowing you can stomp the pedal and go from cruiser to bruiser - without beating up your junks drive train is something that appeals to me.

Thanks for the thread,

Southernman