................Yup, pinion is too far away...................kim..........
contact pattern
- Thread starter mopar head
- Start date
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Supershafts
Well-Known Member
It's still to deep and not marking right, you can keep listening to whomever, but it is still marking at the root, it's not centered like i gave you an example of, meanwhile the coast is afu...
But a gear and a bearing are wear items, so im asking a question that makes the answer so much more easier and obvious.
. So anyone else stumbling onto this can see
Would you buy used mains and rod bearings ? low miles ?
.
But a gear and a bearing are wear items, so im asking a question that makes the answer so much more easier and obvious.
. So anyone else stumbling onto this can see
Would you buy used mains and rod bearings ? low miles ?
.
mopar head
Well-Known Member
Well, I could be very well fn up using this gear set, time will tell, and if their noisy and unbearable I`ll have only myself to blame. I appreciate you taking the time to try and help people on this forum and with all due respect, YOU lack reading skills, we get to page 3 and you ask if this is a used set, when it was clearly stated they were on post 1. Then you put me through the frustration of tearing everything apart only to have the pattern going the Wrong way!
I blew it back apart added the original .032 + .010 which centered the pattern verified good by my new 83 yearold neighbor, longtime mechanic/builder, who has probably forgot more than I know.
Now to get that pesky eliminator shimstack figured out, it`s down to 2-.003 shim which did`nt come with the kit, but thanks to ol`Doc, "my neighbor" had some in his stash, plus let me borrow his big torque wrench.
I blew it back apart added the original .032 + .010 which centered the pattern verified good by my new 83 yearold neighbor, longtime mechanic/builder, who has probably forgot more than I know.
Now to get that pesky eliminator shimstack figured out, it`s down to 2-.003 shim which did`nt come with the kit, but thanks to ol`Doc, "my neighbor" had some in his stash, plus let me borrow his big torque wrench.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Sometimes on the pinion bearing spacer shim stack you have to play with the #'s. In other words if you need .032 and the thickest one you got is a .031 but you have a .020 and a .012 add them together. So you didn't trust me on the high amount of pinion nut torque huh, LOL..
mopar head
Well-Known Member
It was`nt a matter of trust, it was internet jabber albiet ford. I guess I was tring to avoid 250 ft-lb cause it takes my whole body weight to get 150 ft-lbs LOL
contrary to your pinion preload statement pinion shim change does change preload.
As far as shim stack, I understand all that, My kit came with 30s20s10s and 8s. .023 was needed, ol Doc had a 23 but the id was smaller and od was bigger. I had to modify, took an hour+ to do that.
Now how to figure axle length on narrowed housing? New thread, new drama lol:cheers:
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
If your saying the pinion depth shim changes pinion bearing preload your wrong. The pinion bearing preload is solely determined by the pinion spacer/shim length and nothing else. You could put a 1/8" shim behind the pinion bearing or it's race and it wont affect the pinion bearing preload. I may not be the expert some here are but I learned that a long time ago.
Lets keep in mind that their are 2 types of pinion shims when you have a differential with a solid pinion spacer. The pinion depth shim sets the pinion depth position. The pinion spacer shim sets the pinion bearing preload
I invite comments from the local experts yea and nay. If I'm wrong I'll admit it
Supershafts
Well-Known Member
I wanted to verify that it was in fact used, and then start from there, there was no lack of reading.
I said in my posts of what you have shown a pic of that it is marking at the root, to mark at the root is deep.
I then said after you confirmed it's used to make an adjustment, and then you put up a pic showing the COAST got better and was now marking correctly for a useable pattern, from that point we were probably around .003 to .0035 where it needed to be....
Then you put up another pic from a adjustment and it went wrong for the coast, yet the drive was still on the root as it has been in all which is a problem...
At this point it hasn't changed the way it's running on the drive.
If you for some odd reason made a preload setting before everything else is correct and then increase the pin depth it will increase pre load.
. The very last thing you do is set preload.
.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Am I understanding you right that your saying the pinion bearing preload is not solely determined by the pinion bearing spacer, that if you set up the pinion preload then change the pinion depth it changes pinion bearing preload? I see the point of setting the preload last so you can tighten down the pinion nut to achieve drag for checking the pattern. And it's necessary when your using a crush sleeve since you usually have to take things back apart a couple times to get the pin depth right.
As I was writing this it just occurred to me that if you add a spacer behind the rear bearing cup that would change the pinion bearing preload since your changing the distance between the pin bearings. From my experience, which I'm sure isn't anywhere near yours, if the pinion bearing preload is set up and you add a shim between the rear bearing and pinion gear it doesn't change preload because you never changed the distance between the bearings.
Thanks for your input.
Supershafts
Well-Known Member
If you moved the pin by way of race then you did the same thing, the race at the top didn't move.
If you increased the pin by say .003 you'd need to increase the preload by .003
Always set the preload last this way there is no issue
If you increased the pin by say .003 you'd need to increase the preload by .003
Always set the preload last this way there is no issue
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Ok, I understand that part. But what if you moved the pin by way of a shim between the bearing and pin? It does change the position of the pin but not the distance between the pin bearings. Correct me if I'm wrong
I understand your point that setting the preload last eliminates any possible issues.
Thanks for your time
Supershafts
Well-Known Member
If you move the pin in say .010 you also moved it closer to the front bearing, which in turn will now lock up .010 closer together.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
I can see that happening when using a crush sleeve but how can it lock up closer together when you have a solid pin spacer in between the bearings?
I'll leave you alone after this one, I promise... LOL
Solid spacer or crush sleeve, I won't use either while I'm setting pinion depth or contact pattern. I leave them out completely till I get the pattern I want. I merely install the bearings with the yoke and snug the pinion nut down to eliminate all the play. Then I go back with the crush sleeve or solid spacer and set preload last.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
I do it that way now per your suggestion last year. Definitely works better. Only reason I brought it up is the OP said he had the preload already set but it needed pinion depth modification.
mopar head
Well-Known Member
Well, I`m waiting...;)
I mean this in the most constructive way possible. Follow the way I recommend in post #88 and don't even worry about pinion preload until you get the pattern you want. You will save a ton of time and aggravation.
mopar head
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah, I took that lead from supershafts and it makes perfect sense. Initally I was following a factory service manual, allbiet a 67 and instructions were on 742 case.
The order they were explaining, pinion preload was first in order?
I`ve read every thing I could find on the net and followed advise here.
Several pro authors say don`t even bother tring to read drive pattern, pay more attention to coast, also mentioned in this thread.
One thing I`ve learned is info varys alot even with pattern interpretations. Another thing I`ve learned is guys that do this for a living earn every bit of their money:notworth:
Your absolutely right on used gears I only concern myself with the coast pattern.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
I'm also waiting for the answer to my question above. The type of pinion spacer make a difference and I know for fact I've tested it. Can you say that??? Common sense tells you that if you don't move the bearing races and change the solid spacer length that the preload doesn't change because the bearings remain the same distance apart.
The one thing I do admit is something that I didn't tell you to do and that's to set the preload after you get the setup right.
I tell what, why don't we just forget it and you in your minute experience say I'm wrong and I'll concede and just not worry about trying to ever help you again.:wack:
mopar head
Well-Known Member
You got your answer Twice in posts 84+86 but your too hardheaded to accept it. It`s ok I don`t need you to admit anything, you never will.
I truly do appreciate you helping me out but with the tone of your type it`s obvious that your quick to get all butthurt and will never help me again.
I cant find the author, but I was taking notes and wrote this paragraph down in full.
{ Decreasing pinion depth increases backlash and moves the drive pattern toward heel and coast pattern towards toe which also increases pinion bearing preload requiring shim adjustment.} Maybe he was referring to another system? If I was to draw this on paper I would conclude it would decrease preload. But wtf do I know? I have minute experience.
If I`m wrong I`ll admit it AND even apologize!
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Post #86 and 88 didn't answer my question though. I asked specifically about when using a solid pinion spacer and mentioned using a crush sleeve makes a difference and never got a response (yet). I know it's true because I have physically measured it. Have you? Nevertheless it's all in the past. You say it was my tone but you need to take note of yours too. When a person posts something on the internet it's hard to tell their actual tone. Good luck with the project. Since you have no faith in my 30+ yrs. of experience I apologize for taking up space and wasting your time in your threads
Supershafts
Well-Known Member
The crush sleeve and solid or shim PERFORM the same function, neither is better or makes ANYTHING stronger.
1 saves time, the other costs time
1 makes changing a end yoke in the event of failure more important to detail, the other makes it that a monkey can simply knock one off and the other on and pull 250' lbs of force or more on the nut and threads.
Both perform the same function, putting 250 to 500 ft lbs of force on the nut and threads while keeping the bearings within a specific pre load/distance so they aren't to tight and burn up and aren't to loose and kill themselves and the gear.
When you set the preload using shims you are setting the distance by locking the bottom bearing against the pinion gears head and the front bearing against that SPECIFIC measurement of the 2 bearings between eachother.
So if the measurement (example) from the seat of the bearing to seat of bearing is now 2.790 and you stick a .010 shim under the head of the pin you have now made the total distance 2.780, you need to remove from the shim pack for preload.
You have moved the main bearing in closer to the top bearing, THE bearings lock in at the races with a set measurement between them, making pin adjustments moves where the lower bearing is set in relation to the measurement and it will get tighter or looser.
So say at the races we have 2.796 race face to race face, and you want preload to be say 20 " you want a distance of say 2.793, now if you have that between the bearings and you add .010 to the bottom you have made the distance of 2.793 now 2.783. moving them closer is tighter.
With a crush sleeve you get one chance at getting it right, and .0005 can be to tight....
This is why with a crush sleeve it is far far easier and less time consuming, getting the preload perfect with shims is a MF'er when you need the distance to be 2.7965 and you don't have the right shims to get there...
With a crush sleeve that's a .5 degree turn of the nut, which is hardly even a measure-able movement.
Crush sleeve better, faster, easier and more precise, once you learn how little you need to turn things.
Shims, longer, involved and if you want 10" lbs and nothing more and nothing less you'll spend many hours playing games with shims getting the right distance.
. Again there is NO strength between the two, when you hear someone say otherwise, run... they don't know how the diff works or they'd never make that statement.
.
1 saves time, the other costs time
1 makes changing a end yoke in the event of failure more important to detail, the other makes it that a monkey can simply knock one off and the other on and pull 250' lbs of force or more on the nut and threads.
Both perform the same function, putting 250 to 500 ft lbs of force on the nut and threads while keeping the bearings within a specific pre load/distance so they aren't to tight and burn up and aren't to loose and kill themselves and the gear.
When you set the preload using shims you are setting the distance by locking the bottom bearing against the pinion gears head and the front bearing against that SPECIFIC measurement of the 2 bearings between eachother.
So if the measurement (example) from the seat of the bearing to seat of bearing is now 2.790 and you stick a .010 shim under the head of the pin you have now made the total distance 2.780, you need to remove from the shim pack for preload.
You have moved the main bearing in closer to the top bearing, THE bearings lock in at the races with a set measurement between them, making pin adjustments moves where the lower bearing is set in relation to the measurement and it will get tighter or looser.
So say at the races we have 2.796 race face to race face, and you want preload to be say 20 " you want a distance of say 2.793, now if you have that between the bearings and you add .010 to the bottom you have made the distance of 2.793 now 2.783. moving them closer is tighter.
With a crush sleeve you get one chance at getting it right, and .0005 can be to tight....
This is why with a crush sleeve it is far far easier and less time consuming, getting the preload perfect with shims is a MF'er when you need the distance to be 2.7965 and you don't have the right shims to get there...
With a crush sleeve that's a .5 degree turn of the nut, which is hardly even a measure-able movement.
Crush sleeve better, faster, easier and more precise, once you learn how little you need to turn things.
Shims, longer, involved and if you want 10" lbs and nothing more and nothing less you'll spend many hours playing games with shims getting the right distance.
. Again there is NO strength between the two, when you hear someone say otherwise, run... they don't know how the diff works or they'd never make that statement.
.
That sounds like something I would say. lol
Wouldn't you agree though, that the addition of the crush sleeve eliminator removes the possibility of a crush sleeve failure? Usually, that's what causes failures in axles with crush sleeves. The sleeve crushes more and causes misalignment of gears. So if you remove it from the equation, while it certainly doesn't add strength, it does remove the possibility of crush sleeve failure, right?
Supershafts
Well-Known Member
The sleeve can't crush more, the forces on the pin aren't squeezing forces, they are pushing and pulling, or trying to kill eachother forces.
The instant you start using your new set up diff the preload will change by as much as 6" lbs to 11" lbs as the bearings run in.
Under load the pin is trying to remove itself by shooting forward (watch when the 9" fails what it does), so it is relieving the pre load, under decel the ring is trying to eat the pin and send it out the cover, pulling on the front bearing, again relieving pressure, there is never any crushing force on the crush sleeve again after you put the socket and breaker bar away.
There is only loosening happening from there on out, if IF the preload is not set properly (which is the reason for that failure) when the bearings run in and get to the desired preload it will be to light and then the bearings will be getting beat up and then they will fail.
.
The instant you start using your new set up diff the preload will change by as much as 6" lbs to 11" lbs as the bearings run in.
Under load the pin is trying to remove itself by shooting forward (watch when the 9" fails what it does), so it is relieving the pre load, under decel the ring is trying to eat the pin and send it out the cover, pulling on the front bearing, again relieving pressure, there is never any crushing force on the crush sleeve again after you put the socket and breaker bar away.
There is only loosening happening from there on out, if IF the preload is not set properly (which is the reason for that failure) when the bearings run in and get to the desired preload it will be to light and then the bearings will be getting beat up and then they will fail.
.
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