What gives you the right to dictate what anyone else writes on an open forum?
Your arrogance to expect others to abide by your orders is appalling.
K-Member / Rack & Pinion Steering Suggestions
- Thread starter Mopar Virgin
- Start date
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Your arrogance to expect others to abide by your orders is appalling.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
my 71 dart had a alter-k in it. drove it for quite a few years until i parted the car out. my car was only a small block. dislikes? none. nothing not to like. likes, everything. easy straight forward install, tons of room to install the headers, easily get to the starter, at the time there wasn't the selection of larger brakes for mopars so that was a plus, the way that car drove was awesome.. i used the power rack.. i don't care what steering box you put in a car, there is just no way its gonna feel like a rack. too many parts to develops even the slightest bit of slop with a box and its related equipment,, that dart felt like a modern car going down the road. i always see people (non owners ) that claim less turning radius. it may have less who knows. i never measured it, but i can tell you that i never noticed it or had any issues with the turning radius. teh alter- is by far the most proven unit out there on the market today.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
The answer about the lower control arm mount is in the experience of the people who actually bought the kit and are using it.
I have searched and searched for any negativity about build quality and component failures of the RMS System . I couldn't find any. Same for HDK Systems.
For what its worth, I have over 5000 miles of street driving on mine and its perfect. No issues whatsoever.
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
Ha ha....When you post a picture of someone, you always have to expect some will notice stuff like an eye patch, a crooked nose, big ears or missing teeth. I expect comments when I've posted pictures of myself. Maybe a few critics over there look just as bad as Jamie?
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
it was rusty...
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
DionR
Well-Known Member
Not saying I expect a failure, only a concern for instability. And it's just a curiosity, it's not like I've done design calcs on it or anything. I'd hope someone has though.
Just seems like an area where by nature it starts from a weak point and you spend time/effort/money/materials to shore it up. Just a point of concern for me.
Glad it has been good for you. Nothing worse than doing something big and then being disappointed.
That list was to cater to the "everything brand new and bolt in" crowd. A lot of the parts on that list can be left off if you keep some of the factory parts. The QA1 K member is nice, but a gusseted stock K works just as well. The tubular LCA's are nice, but again, gusseted originals work just fine. The SPC UCA's are probably overkill for most folks, and certainly the RMS doesn't have double adjustable UCA's.
If you have some basic fabrication skills and a MIG welder you can drop over $1k off that price tag right off the bat and have all the work done in a weekend.
I read just fine, I just don't care what your criteria are for when a coil-over system is or is not warranted. I was looking for additional info regarding why you chose to not build another AlterK equipped car, but I guess the answer is you don't want to do the chassis reinforcement for a "traditional" build? Which means the Viper brakes and SPC UCA's are probably overkill, but whatever floats your boat I guess.
I personally wouldn't put together any Mopar without the chassis stiffening you described (and more), regardless of the style of suspension used. Sure, I think coil-over conversions especially need some kind of inner fender/shock tower reinforcement, some kind of triangulation to support the change in where the suspension loads are being carried. But I do that reinforcement anyway, even with torsion bar suspension, because it is a weak spot in the chassis.
But the bottom line I think is that you still don't understand that the torsion bar system is the BETTER performance suspension on these cars. Better geometry, better handling. My build has nothing to do with being traditional, it uses those parts because they're better than an MII system that's been modified and bolted onto a Mopar chassis. MII's are everywhere because they're relatively simple and easy to adapt to other chassis, not because they have unparalleled performance. They gained a following with the street rod and hot rod crowd adding IFS to cars that used to have beam axles. But these Mopars already have IFS, and a good one at that. And if you are building a resto-mod, or full pro-touring car the torsion bar set up should be considered if you're actually serious about having the best handling.
As for what you paid, I don't really care. Sure, I have no doubt that if you have to pay to have all the work done for you that you can spend just as much money rebuilding the torsion bar suspension to modern standards. I've never paid anyone to work on my Mopars outside of engine machining, so I guess I just don't even consider that. Seam welding and gusseting a K is pretty straightforward, the metal is thick so it's easy to MIG and you can make all the gussets with some 3/16" plate and an angle grinder. Easy peasy. A little grease remover and a pressure wash and you're on your way. I've posted several "lists" with varying different levels of components, not a single one was more expensive than an AlterK. Not even the one that included 100% new parts. I'm not arguing that you didn't spend more, I'm just saying you don't have to in order to have a suspension that will compete with a coil over conversion.
I just don't see the need for a rack at all. I drive cars and trucks with them, and I drive cars and trucks with worm/ball boxes. I mean, I guess they're nice and all but I wouldn't bother swapping any of my worm/ball steering box vehicles over to rack and pinions unless it got me better suspension geometry or something else along the way. Racks just aren't a performance improvement.
Glad you're showing interest in what I am doing with the Valiant. I'll get you up to speed on it. Front to back; reinforced radiator core, j-bars from front of inner fenders to firewall, gusset from j-bar to shock mounting point, US Cartool under fender brace, subframe connector, 4 torque boxes, 1.24" torsion bars (I consider the torsion bars as structural as well as suspension), 6 point roll bar, and a fuel cell cage that ties the rear frames together.
As stated before, I am following the same vein as the Green and Red Bricks. I just wanted to build a torsion bar car.
The Valiant isn't completed yet but I have no doubt that it will be a beast and with so much research and reading posts from you and others I believe that I will have maximized the torsion bar system with the weight, drivetrain, and wheel and tire combo. I do honestly believe that it could not be improved upon by using any other suspension on the market, QA1, Alter-k-tion, HDK....
What I'm not going to do is say that, at least, the Alter-k-tion is inferior. I can't speak to the others but the Riley Motorsports piece has done everything I've wanted it to do. It handles like it's on freaking rails, it provides vast real estate for 1-7/8" header primaries and 3-1/2" collectors. It's tremendously easier to adjust ride height. The ability to adjust spring rate is much easier too. It's lighter. The welds are strong and beautiful unlike the criminal OEM k-frame.
It has it's value and I could care less that it is "based" on a MII. Nothing on the Alter-k-tion has any MII parts on it. The spindles aren't MII, they have Mopar ball joints, different steering points, harder steel. Someone questioned the lower control arm? They're better than MII and stronger than, at least, non-stiffened OEM LCA's.
Does anyone need a coilover suspension? No. But who needs 17" wheels? Who needs a sway bar? Who needs Fox shocks? I mean, the alternatives are cheaper? ****, who needs a hotrod? What is a hotrodder is a better question. Isn't a hotrodder someone who wants to try new things and do stuff different? Everyone has their own idea on what they want to do. Why try so hard to stop someone from doing different stuff? Love the passion from you but it is a little, EXTRA.
You need to. You need to if you are going to the extent of proselytizing the virtues of torsion bars when it comes to the cost aspect. Not everyone is a Billie Badass like you. Some people don't have the time, space, tools, or knowledge. Some people have one or a few and the one they don't keeps them from attaining all. Sometimes people just have the money. Who are we to say they can't play? My welding skills are minimal and I will not trust my life to my welds with my 120v equipment. I don't have the location for bodywork. I have knowledge and tools but I don't always have the time so my work goes really slow and sometimes it is worth it, to me, to pay someone to do some work.
You're so awesome, but please, don't hold everyone else to your standard. This is what you should be saying,
DionR
Well-Known Member
To be clear, I'm not talking about the LCA at all. My curiosity is the mount for the LCA.
Think of it this way:
If you sink a post in the ground a couple of inches and then brace it to one side, that post is pretty stiff in the direction of the brace. If you remove the brace, you have to change the end of the post somehow if you want the same stiffness. In a pole building, they sink the post much further (when I did mine it was 36"). This creates the rigidity that is needed.
On a MII suspension, the LCA is braced by a strut rod. This is removed in most of the aftermarket suspensions and the LCA mount is widened to resist those same forces similar to how a post is sunk further into the ground on a pole building.
I assume it is enough, but it is a curiosity for me. That LCA is a great lever to exert a good amount of force on the mount.
Also, I find it funny that the Op asks for input, but when Blu gives his experience you jump on him. I haven't seen him chase anyone down and talk them out of a coil over conversion, but when people ask for input he is good enough to give his. Not sure what the problem is here unless it is just that you don't like his opinion.
And I don't see any venom in his response that he hasn't paid to have work done. Sounds like he is just acknowledging that he doesn't have any insight there. Nor do I see him looking down on anyone that does pay. Best I can tell, he doesn't care who does the work.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a cool build!
This is the original post of this thread.
The OP did not ask for input on the OEM system. This same thing plays out anytime someone asks for input on coilover suspension. Blu comes hard in the paint with the torsion bar sales pitch. This is the definition of "chasing someone down to talk them out of a coilover system".
Ever talk to someone, about anything, and even if you agree with what they are saying they just won't shut up about it and move on to the next topic?
For the record, I am fine with his opinion but until I drive a car that has torsion bars and then install an Alter-k-tion and test them back to back I'm not going to tell someone they're doing it wrong.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I guess I read that as not married to a coil over conversion either. And because of that I don't see points on the TB suspension as being out of place. But I might be reading it wrong, maybe the OP really is only looking at coil over kits.
One point that I think needs to me made is that for many that come from other brands, they see coil overs as a much needed upgrade. For most GM cars, it really is, their suspension geometry really kind of sucks. So when someone from the GM camp picks up a Mopar they think it must be the same. The reality is that there are pluses and minuses to everything and a coil over conversion might not be necessary if someone understands that really the only issue with a OEM TB suspension is being undersprung and not having enough caster. So educating people isn't a bad thing.
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This is very true. I would just say that Blu "fervently" tries to educate people. He won't let it go.
con·tem·po·rar·y
/kənˈtempəˌrerē/
adjective
- belonging to or occurring in the present.
No disrespect but I do think you are reading the OP wrong and to the extent that 72bluNblu should be commenting is in an "education" type of way and not spend too much time on persuasion. To me, the OP is clearly looking for a contemporary (aftermarket) suspension system.
Scody21
Just send it
Know what’s funny? The Contemporary Formula 1 cars running the last 15 + years are, you guessed it using Torsion Bars. Granted the bars are only about 6 inches long, but nonetheless, they are torsion bars.
The other part that really pushed the coil over suspension is the changes in the 80’s of cars going to front wheel drive / transverse engine and the changing of how unibody cars are assembled to reduce costs. Cars now a days are meant to be driven, crashed and recycled in a short life span. So they cross platform parts, and doing so makes it a whole lot cheaper to roll a car off the assembly line..
To me, with the direction of the OP’s built, seems he’d be happier with an E36 with the cuda body swapped on it. It’s a slant 6, coil over front, IRS rear, add a eBay blower, and done. That’s Contemporary. Cheby Guys building a Mopar….
The other part that really pushed the coil over suspension is the changes in the 80’s of cars going to front wheel drive / transverse engine and the changing of how unibody cars are assembled to reduce costs. Cars now a days are meant to be driven, crashed and recycled in a short life span. So they cross platform parts, and doing so makes it a whole lot cheaper to roll a car off the assembly line..
To me, with the direction of the OP’s built, seems he’d be happier with an E36 with the cuda body swapped on it. It’s a slant 6, coil over front, IRS rear, add a eBay blower, and done. That’s Contemporary. Cheby Guys building a Mopar….
DionR
Well-Known Member
Valid, could be my bias led me to see an updated TB suspension as still a valid response. Only the OP can truly answer what it means to him though.
There’s a couple threads where Blu and I go back and forth and it’s just getting old. I state that each system has its place and advocate for torsion bars on most builds. I have used and have no problem with the coilover suspension and there are pluses to using them.
However, Blu is like a pit bull when it comes to the torsion bar system. He’s a very helpful member and I truly value him being here. I have learned a lot reading his posts and used some of his knowledge. I just wish he would respect when people disagree and appreciate that this is hotrodding and sometimes people are going to want to build their car from the vision they have.
There are a lot of UNeducated enthusiasts that would benefit from advocates for both sides. People that get swayed by the glitz and hype of an aftermarket setup are often well intentioned but uninformed. The new stuff is shiny and refined in appearance, I'll readily admit that. The old stuff seems like it should be inferior simply because most mechanical things do get better with ongoing development.
If I were about to buy something and expecting an improvement, I would appreciate hearing from critics and supporters before jumping in and feeling like I made a mistake.
72Blu responded to a thread of mine about changing to the Dr Diff 13" front brakes. I currently have the 11.75 Cordoba discs with iron calipers. Some thought that the bigger brakes were not big enough of an increase to warrant the cost. 72 offered to chat through PM to give advice. THAT is a member that cares enough to share his own experiences to save a person from possible regret and wasted money.
If you don't like the member, place them on ignore.
If I were about to buy something and expecting an improvement, I would appreciate hearing from critics and supporters before jumping in and feeling like I made a mistake.
72Blu responded to a thread of mine about changing to the Dr Diff 13" front brakes. I currently have the 11.75 Cordoba discs with iron calipers. Some thought that the bigger brakes were not big enough of an increase to warrant the cost. 72 offered to chat through PM to give advice. THAT is a member that cares enough to share his own experiences to save a person from possible regret and wasted money.
If you don't like the member, place them on ignore.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
I've often wondered why these companies that build the aftermarket coil over/rack systems haven't changed the spindle/control arm design to that of the C5 or C6 Corvette. I'm pretty sure that's the design many of the big GM aftermarket suspension is designed after.
I believe XV was doing that. Speed tech has a deal for B/E that does that but it’s quite expensive.
DionR
Well-Known Member
That would add some real function, in my mind. C5 spindles would mean an easy wheel speed sensor and options for ABS and/or traction control. I know you did one using the lugs, but this would be with a much easier and more precise.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
Right! Not to mention the OE big brake options. I'm betting it's the bolt pattern that keeps them away from it.
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