Need 4-speed Help

-
I don't know anything about the depth of the scatter shield vs. a factory bell housing, but if there is too much space or too little space, what would that cause it to do?... If the tranny input shaft doesn't have a solid alignment to the pilot bearing and a proper seat in it, engaging the disc is to the pressure plate and fly wheel without it centering, would cause it to wobble, chatter, vibrate... It wouldn't be nice... With the engine off... Maybe you could (inplace of taking the whole thing apart again), turn the transmission output yoke (you may have to drop the drive shaft and might need another yoke if that's possible) with the tranny in 1st gear and slowly engage the clutch and see what you feel at the yoke and hear as you turn it by hand.... It would be a slow motion attempt to feel or hear binding or flopping... It may not show anything, may even be really hard to turn and work the clutch at the same time, but what's your alternative at this point, another disassembly... Maybe you can get some help from someone with this... But above all, be careful... If you have to take it apart again, I would suggest, that you 1st remove the tranny straight back without disengaging clutch... Then get a flash light and see if you can look (with a mirror depending on the space you have) into the bell housing in a straight line as the shaft would be and look at the clutch disc, pilot bearing, and throw out and see if it looks out of line, any signs of wear or galling of parts... Do this in a safe manner with the car properly supported and immobile, and with rear of the engine supported well... Also you might want to measure the distance from the face of the bell housing to end of the pilot opening and compare that to the trans shaft length to see if it all adds up... It's not going to be easy, but do it safely... I've been under my 67 about 4 times this week in 28 to 43 degree NJ weather outdoors to undo my shift pattern problems, buts yours is more complicated by far.... Be safe, be careful, be well, and good luck... And above all take all this with a grain of salt, if someone suggests something better or easier, do it......
 
Did you check the alignment of the bell housing to the center line of your crankshaft? A misalignment can cause problems. Has to be checked with a dial indicator. It's probably more likely to be off with an aftermarket bell. The only way to correct is with offset pins for the block. Another question. Did your block have the alignment pins in the back of it?
 
Heres A Stupid Question.
Are You Sure Its Not Stuck In 2 Gears .
Just Install The First Gear Rod.
Make Sure The Other 2 Arms On The Trans Are In The Middle.
I Dont Know. Just My 2 Cents.
 
67DART340 - When I pull the trans, I'll measure the output shaft length against the distance between the scattershield (SS) face and pilot bearing. And will perform in a safe manner, thanks..

64 Cuda - Didn't check the alinment center of the crank and SS opening. Not sure I understand what to use as reference points, but maybe once everything is removed again, it will make more sense. I seem to remember the block dowels since that's where the motor plate was alinged and the SS bolted to that with several bolts.

limelite70 - Definitely not a stupid question about being in 2 gears. Thought about that and if I understand about the sideplate 1-4th shift lever mechanism, that shouldn't be possible. There's a cylinder, spring, and ball bearing assembly between the 1-2 and 3-4 shift levers that control the forks and if assembled correctly prevent that condition. The way I found that out is the first time I pulled the side cover to inspect, I reassembled and couldn't manually shift the levers. After pulling the side cover again, I stuck a telescoping magnet into the oil at the bottom of the case and "Clink," one of the ball bearings had fallen out. Once I put the assembly back together correctly, it shifted fine and would allow both levers to be move simultaneously.

Also, I had my wife shift through the gears while I was under the car ensuring the proper shift levers were fully engaging/disengaging... Was making sure the shift rods were adjusted to the proper length as well.

So, looks like the next step is to remove the trans, SS, clutch assembly (Check clutch disk for proper orientation), and have the flywheel resurfaced. Got a quote from the local machine shop and it's about $35 or less.

Thanks again guys for all the suggestions. Very much appreciated...
 
I just went back and reread your thread and I remembered mine was similar.My problem was the bracket on the side of SS for the Z-bar not lining up properly.I had to drill another hole and bolt it straight.Problem solved.So check first to make sure your z-bar is working correctly,cause If it is off just the slightest,your clutch will only be 1/2 engageing,giving you the shuttering like a worn clutch.Hope this is your problem,cause that tranny is #%$&*ing heavy and awkward.Good Luck and keep us posted.$20 says thats your problem.:read2:
 
Just wanted to jump back in, If my memory serves me, I thought I remember having a problem with TO bearing styles. First one wanting to fall between 3 arms, and spreading them out before pushing them in. I think the old one had a flat face flanged steel bushing, I had to remove from old one to new one. If yours does`nt have this bushing this maybe jacking the arms around, causing the rollers to work their way out, reeking havoc. Hopefully you havent bent arms. Yes its comeing back to me, I went through same ****. but tested upon jack stands, motor running, new squealing t.o. bearing, doing as stated above. only bad thing, it did screw up arms, took back to napa,( all inocent looking) and got it replaced. shhhh, my ignorance. see if your t.o. bearing has this face bushing. sorry you may have to get a new p. plate. been there buddy, doing trannys by yourself sucks, unless you have a tranny jack. nice to have a buddy around just to steady it while lining it up. let us know if this is the source of irritation.
 
prettybludart - Yeah, had to fabricate a bracket for the z-bar to align straight (3D - X, Y, and Z axis). The stock SS mount location wasn't even close. But, I think I got it fairly close in accuracy after redoing it twice because I constructed before the headers were installed and didn't account for how close the tubes came to the adjusting rod.

I do have 2 questions: 1) How far was your z-bar off? As mentioned, I got it close and just wondering how precise it needed to be, since I just used a visual guide and didn't use a level or square, but it seems to operate correctly. 2) Wondering how this caused the shuttering? I can undestand how 1/2 engaged caused my first problem of the squealing/slipping, but not sure I understand this one.... Would like it to be engaging issue and not flywheel of clutch disk related....

BTW, yeah, installing the trans is one of the more cumbersome jobs. Especially since my Craftsman floor jack as a small lift head on it and the trans wants to easily wander off. Used to hands to hold/stablize and my feet to pumpt the jack handle. Thought about fabricating an attachment head for the jack to strap the trans on, but didn't think I was going to be doing this R&R 3+ times... Ugh....

mopar head - The TO bearing should be correct since it came with the Hays cutch kit/set (Pressure plate, clutch disk, TO bearing, and alignment tool). But, thinking when I installed the trans the first time, may have installed at the improper angle and wedged the TO bearing between the pressure plate fingers because the clutch didn't feel right and there wasn't as much resitance as there should have been.

When I installed the trans the second time, I did inspect the 3 pressure plate fingers to ensure they contacted the TO bearing correctly. Was surprised at the low margin of error allowed for contact between the 2 surfaces. So, I was much more careful to insert the trans at a level horizontal angle. This time, the clutch feels much better; more resistance and earlier contact.

Also, I did test forward and reverse w/the back still on jack stands, but didn't fully release the clutch. Maybe I'll try that again to see if it shutters while not under load....
 
Just a thought. Read in an earlier post that you were using a roller pilot bearing. Is this the one that fits in the big register hole in the end of the crankshaft? Does your crankshaft have a pilot bushing hole drilled in the end of it? This hole should be around 3/4" in diameter and around 3/4" deep. The reason I bring this up is that the only roller pilot bearing that I have heard of for a Mopar is a rather large item that is made to fit into the register hole in the end of cranks that are not drilled for a pilot bushing so you can use a manual transmission with a crank that was originally made for an automatic and there is no pilot bushing hole. The fly in the ointment is that you have to trim the end of the transmission input shaft to prevent it from jamming against the end of the crank when everything is buttoned up if you do not have a pilot bushing hole. The input shaft only needs to be long enough to fill the pilot bearing without protruding through it. You may need to cut 1/2" to 3/4" off the end of your input shaft to make this happen. Just throwing out ideas and it's something to check. Hope this helps.
 
I feel your pain! It's cool how everyone is trouble-shooting your problem right here on the FABO site. Good luck. I'm sooo impressed with all the knowledge and experence on this site!
 
The only thing that will squeal is the throw out bearing, check it, alignment, and fork; as all have said.
 
It's probably been mentioned, but I'm on autopilot. Before putting it all back together, it may be good to blast the splines on both the clutch hub and input shaft with brake cleaner. It's amazing how much a tiny amount of grit/crud will do. I'm assuming that this is a street/strip clutch and not some violent race-only unit. The latter tend to rattle your teeth loose when used gently (stiff or unsprung hubs, thin marcel, etc.). Smooth and properly aligned linkage is crucial. I'm not sure whether or not the fingers on these are adjustable or if that's a Fnord thing. Make sure that the throwout bearing and the fork pivot move smoothly.

Brain dump status: complete
 
so many tiny things could be ythe problem,,hard to tell with out being there,

if you bought thre crank,,,call the company and ask them if the normally dril it for a input shaft for a stick car,,

sounds like removing and installing it has changed the problem,or at least made it different,

it sucks to have to remove it so many times,,but during the learing process,not having some one there that knows to help out ,thats what hapens we have all been there a time or 2..

first check the crank see if it is drilled for the input shaft depth,,if it wasnt drilled it may be hard or impossible to get the trans to bolt up tight against the scatter shield,, so im guesing your ok in this area,,

next check the same depth at the trans side of the bearing that you put in thre crank,, if all that is well and good,, put the trans back in,,,

with the trans in,leave the Z-BAR,BELL CRANK, which ever you choose to call it,, leave it out,uninstalled, put the trans in netrual, if you have an extra rear slip yoke laying around put in the back of trans where the drive shaft goes, make sure its in netural,, or use the drive shaft,unhooked from the rear end end,,,

then put it in a gear,,or run thru the gears one at as time , do it fomr undernieth no shifter needed,,use a wench, to turn thre post on the trans,

when in gear see if you can turn the drive shaft or extra yoke ,,do that in each gear, then put back in netural,, make sure your clutch adjusting rod,to the fork is either adjusted correctly or unhooked during this,,

put trans in nutreal start it up see if you have al that noise,, then start putting in each part one at a time,,,clutch linkage,,start car,with out a drive shaft,,put it in gear let out clutch you may gat a litlt drippage out of thre tail shaft of fluid,, DONT REV UP,,,U WILL SLING TRANS FLUID,,

if no noise let it idle for a few in gear,,

im guessing its in the pedal linkage,,

and i think its impossible to put the disc in backwards,, the springs woul dhit the fly wheel to crank bolts,,
 
grumpuscreature - Yes, it was larger diameter bearing/bushing. I wasn't sure which one I was going to use and since the pilot bushing was relatively cheap (>$10), I ordered both. When I examined, seemed like the roller style bearing/bushing was a much better option. So, I tested fit on the end of the of the trans output shaft and installed into the crank end. It was very much a press fit and there was room behind the bearing, but didn't think to measure how much. Will make sure I measure when I remove the trans again..

bvt69dart@comca - Thanks for feeling my pain and agreed since I've learned a lot from all of the FABO members.

green1 - W/R to your TO bearing comment, assuming you're addressing problem 1, squealing? If not, wouldn't think it would contribute to problem 2, shuddering since the TO bearing is new. Unless, I'm misinterpreting what you're saying...

doktor_x - Yes, it's a Hays street/strip clutch kit and don't recall, from memory, if there's an adjustment on the 3 pp arms. That's what a buddies co-worker suggested w/reference to his previous shuddering problem on his Ranchero. Seem to remember the arms evenly contacting the TO bearing, when I last had the trans out, but will look more critcally next time if the trans, pp, clutch disk, and flywheel are removed. The fork and TO bearing seem to be working correctly and have smooth play and about .5 - 1" of play in the adjusting rod and fork.

fstfish66 - Called Ohio Crank this a.m. and all they could only tell me was they make all cranks to OEM spec. When I ordered the rotating assembly, there was not choice between auto vs. manual. Based on my comments above, will conclude that OEM spec has provisions for manual trans since the pilot bearing fit w/room behind. But, will defintiely take measurements to ensure output shaft is not contating the back of crank..

I may have already accomplished the equivalent of what you're suggesting in testing the shifting mechanisms, minus starting car... If I understand that correctly, not sure I want to attempt that yet, but will keep in mind. I forget the configuration in regards to the flywheel and clutch disk. I seem to remember there was only one way the flywheel could go on, but only recall the label (Sticker) on the clutch plate saying "Engine Side," I think? Will examine when I pull it...

Okay guys... Thanks for all the suggestions. Seems like the inevitable next step is pull the trans, take a couple measurments, clean, and have the flywheel resurfaced. Also, will ask my machine shop guy to see if he can tell whether or not the flywheel was out of true....

Will keep everyone posted...
 
With a scatter shield they tell you you have to dial it in and possibly use offset dowels to align it properly , you could have a misalignment issue along wit ha misadjusted clutch linkage assembly .

Dialing it in requires a dial indicator installed on the crank and you measure the inside diameter of the hole the bearing retainer goes into .

if you need dowels DO NOT BUY THE LAKEWOOD DOWELS , the yare ford dowels and do not properly fit a mopar , get the RobbMc dowels , a little more expensive but worth it .
 
JohnRR - Thanks for the suggestion. I think one other members made a similar suggestion. Don't have never seen or used a dial indicator, but should be able to figure it out... What I can't envision is how to center the dial indicator on the crank? I'm assuming there's a magnetic end on the instrument and it has to be centered on the crank to get an accurate reading on the SS opening circumference. Hmm, will see if I can locate one and maybe it will make sense if I see the tool.

In the meantime, maybe when I pull the trans, I'll use a dummy input shaft, stick it in the clutch plate splines, pilot pushing, and take measurments from the outer diameter of the output shaft to the SS opening at 4-5 points... Will do this before pulling the SS and flywheel... I have a 3-speed trans on the side of the house I was going to toss and now maybe I'll diasassemble it for spare parts. Assuming the input shaft between a 3 and 4 speed are the same?
 
input shafts are the same as where it goes in to the clutch. if you want to try the dial indacator deal,,use one with a magnetic base,,and remove one of the fly wheel bolts so it will sit level,,
 
fstfish66 - Thanks for confirmation on the input shaft. Sorry to be soooo dense, but still don't get the dial indicator measurment process. I understand what you're saying about taking a bolt out, which will allow the dial indicator to attach to the crank @ 90 degrees. What I'm not getting is how you measure if the SS opening is aligned to center? I'm thinking the dial indicator needs to be centered on the crank and then you check the SS openings on each of 4 points to ensure there's an even distance from that point?? Basically measuring equal X and Y axis' are the same from a given point.... That way, it the distance is greater between either up (+) or down (-) (Y-axis) or left (-) to right (+) (X-axis) or a comibination of the 2, you would use offset dowels to even the distances...

Am I completely misunderstanding this???
 
I have been down this road before. I pulled the motor and left the trans in the car with the scattershield still bolted to the trans. Got the new motor and attempted to install the motor to the trans/scatteshield... that didn't work out at all. I got on here and started explaining my problem and was told to pull the motor back out of the engine bay and install the trans to the motor 1st then install as a whole unit. Worked like a charm.

My set up Mcleod 11" clutch, Mcleod diaphram type pressure plate (not the 3 finger one) and new TO and resufaced flywheel.

I was told of the dial indicator and so forth but I knew that it would work since it had already been is use before. So I knew that it would all bolt back together... just getting it together was my problem.

OK this part is important

I left the pp bolts loose ... this allowed the clutch to give a little and let everything line up better especially the input shaft of the trans to inside the pilot bushing. Once I got the trans mounted up tight against the scattershield I turned the motor until the pp bolts was in that SMALL clutch fork hole and torqued the bolts down. I used a two step method on torquing the pp bolts so that means I had to turn the motor over twice. This worked for me with no problems. When I left the pp bolts loose that trans just about fell into place! Those alignment tools might work for some but it did not work for me. lol

Also you might want to have someone press the clutch just enough to relieve the pressure while you are working the trans into place... this might work without leaving the PP bolts loose.

It's hard sometimes doing everything completely by yourself... believe me I know. I did all the above completely by myself. I can safely say I installed the motor and trans with no help whatsoever. LOL
 
I installed motor,s.shield and tranny,also rearend all by myself so I know where your coming from.Sometimes I wish I had a 3rd arm LOL!!I installed the scatter shield with only having issues with the mount for the Z bar.(fixed that)I didn,t use a dial indicator either.Just offset the dowls and everything went together without any hitches other than time consuming.I did frontend alignment at Ford for 17 years(changed jobs 5 yers ago)so I,m used to working overhead.Still had to rest the arms periodicly.Hope you figure out your problem!
 
Update: Tran removed, again! The input shaft had a grease ring on where it insterted through the roller pilot bushing about an inch from the end. So, looks like it's protruding thorugh the bushing and into the crank end ok. The 3 pp plate arms are protruding evenly to where they would contact the TO bearing. TO bearing looks fine and no uneven contact marks and clutch fork was still attached to TO bearing with clips.

Looks like pulling the SS, PP, clutch plate and flywheel for resurfacing is next....

BTW, is it normal to have some play in the trans input shaft? There some (Minimal) play, both up/down and in/out. Probably not much more that 1/16". Since it's stabalized by the pilot bushing/bearing, didn't think that would cause a major shutter...
 
matsucu06 said:
BTW, is it normal to have some play in the trans input shaft? There some (Minimal) play, both up/down and in/out. Probably not much more that 1/16". Since it's stabalized by the pilot bushing/bearing, didn't think that would cause a major shutter...
Click to expand...


Yes that is normal.
 
mullinax95 - Thanks. Seemed like it was reasonable...

OK, removed pp and clutch disk was installed correctly and was still clean. Actually, looks like it can only be installed one way w/raised spring surface facing pp.

Also, good news/bad news... The flywheel had "Hays Billet New" marked on it and "Did" have the half moon grind marks. So, the good news is that I wasn't completely lame and installed w/o fair cause, but the bad news is this may not be causng my shuttering problem as formerly thought.

Inspected the pp and noticed some rattling. After a closer look, it has "Roller" like dowels inserted between guides that look to keep the outer shell aligned when the pp is depressed. The funny thing is that there are guide slots for 6 and only 3 rollers installed. They're in symetrical locations, just not sure if this is the way it's supposed to be or was manufatured incorretly, missing parts; this is a new Hays pp. Also, not sure if this would cause my shuttering problem...

Geez, this is getting tough.....
 
You might want to chunk that crap! That does not sound healthy.

I talked to Wayne at Brewers transmission and I told him what size motor I had, what kind of horses I would be running, intended use, etc.. He set me up with 10.95 (11") clutch and PP. See my above post. I assure you that my pp did not have anything that would rattle and I sure wouldn't have one that does. LOL!

Do you have a any way of posting some pictures? One picture says a thousand words. I'm going back and reread this thread and see what type of PP you are using.
 
mullinax95 - Attached is a picture of the Hays pp. Looks like the roller parts belong there, just not sure what purpose they serve... In one of the pics, you can see the channels where it looks like there should be more rollers, but can't really tell since I'm not sure how this pp mechanically works...

IMG_0039.JPG


IMG_0047.JPG


IMG_0041.JPG
 
I would box that thing up and send it back if it was me. Get yourself a diaphragm type pressure plate. Click here and then click on "Pressure Plates". You'll see the different type pp and the diaphragm one will be in the bottom right had corner. You've already had trouble with the one you have so more than likely it will give you trouble down the road. That's the way I look at it anyways. I like the diaphragm type because it has minimum foot effort. You will have to remove your over center spring over your clutch pedal if you go with the diaphragm type.



http://www.mcleodind.com/product_guide.html
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top