Need 4-speed Help

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that is a hays gold pp,, it is a heavy plate meening pressure wise,im sure your left leg is sore from pushing the pedal,,,it has a lot of clamping power,,and being a 3 finger it is like the factory pp mopar used,the diaphram style are like GM,, and what a lot of after market use also suck as center force,,for smother engaugement,,

the rollers you are refering too are called " ROLLER ASIST ' to make it a little easier on your leg,,i would call hays and ask them if is it built like that or missing rollers,,my guess its correct,,

and im sure with that PP your fire wall flexes when you push the pedal,,

A body fire walls arent all the sturdy at the pedal pivot point,,you may wana make a bracket and reinforce the fire wall,,,

does your throw out bearing turn smoothly ???

ver hard to determine your problem over the internet,,, when you reassemble it all take your time,,look at each componet that you put together,,make sure it is together properly and clean,,,no grease on the clutch or pp surface,

use dry graphite only on the trans splines,,no grease,,

do you have the correct FORK?? with the trans out and the bearing on the fork,,look thur the hole in the bell housing see if the TO BEARING is centered over the 3 fingers,,

use that input shaft you have to line up the clutch disc when tightening the pressure plate to the flywheel,,,then the tranny will slide in like butter,,,

one more very important detail,,,,DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN THE PRESSURE PLATE BOLTS,, make sure the bolts are in good shape,,new ones from mister gasket would be best,,clean threaded holes,,and use lock tite,,

i believe the torque spec on the PP bolts is 35 ft lbs,, a servive manual wil list that spec,it is VERY IMPORTANT,, over tightening will burn your clutch disc in to the face of your fly wheel and now allow the disc to release properly,,,lock tite on the fly wheel to crank bolts as well,,new bolts would be best,, if you need torque specs,, e mail me fstfish66@aol.com

good luck
 
Dude, if you refer to my first post, page1, I referenced these rollers! I used a napa factory style replacement pressure plate, probably not much difference, design wise. one of mine slipped out, all I did was pull arm back and fished roller in its home. works just fine, just high effort, but thats normal with these style. You`ll remember I mentioned Hung clutch? What this refers to is when your installing by yourself and slip you can accidently, pull an arm back dislodging roller, or even shift disc slightly, makeing line up, a no go. there is little room for error when lineing it up. I found lowering engine as much as possible, gives you a better shot at keeping tranny going straight in. Even with engine as low as it could go, I still had to keep tranny tight to tunnel to keep from hanging on anything. play it again sam:cheers:
 
All,
Sorry for the delay in responding. Have been busy, but hope to log some time this weekend..

mullinax95 - Thanks for the recommendation on the diaphragm style pp. Probably won't change pp's yet since I made the decision to go w/this style and trying to stay on a budget. Plus, I think the first problem was due to my inexperience and the rattling noise was my lack of knowledge. Have since learned that only 3 rollers are by design and are for centrifugal assist which means at higher rpms, increase pressure on the clutch disk/flywheel... Just need to be more careful to align when I install the trans..

fstfish66 - Leg not sore yet, but haven't even driven the car around the block yet. May regret if I get stuck in traffic someday, but maybe the extra workout will save me a trip to the gym... After reading up more on the roller assist, it appears it helps with increased pp pressure at higher rpms via centrifugal force.. Interesting, but makes sense.

TO bearing, fork, pp arms are all correct and good after close inspection. Also, thanks for the torque specs and recommendations. Agreed with the Borg Beck style of pp, there is very little room for error. I was able to get it right the second try, so will need to replicate that effort.

mopar head - Agreed, you did tell me that. I think early on, I couldn't visualize what you were describing until recent inspection of the pp.

At this point, I've concluded that it is definitely a bad clutch. I think problem 1 (Squealing) caused problem 2 (Shuttering - bad clutch). Seems like the squealing was caused by the trans not being aligned and causing the pp to not fully disengage and the squealing was the slipping pp vs. clutch plate/flywheel. This glazed the clutch plate which is now causing the chattering clutch.

Picked up a cheap dial indicator ($8) and magnetic stand ($9) to measure ss opening alignment to crank and will reassemble with a new clutch disk. If all goes well, will know by the end of the weekend... Wish me luck!
 
There have been different A 833 transmission input bearing sizes according to engine and year( ie. HEMI/440, std, & O.D.)... Is the input bearing diameter can be 5.125", 4.80", or 4.35"... Does this need to match the opening of the new housing to be aligned... I believe it does if you are using an original factory bell housing... This could be a possible alignment issue if there is any slop in the bolt up (example the original bell housings sometimes have as many as 12 holes on the tranny side, but the castings are machined relatively square or I should say parallel to the bell housing/engine, so that the tranny is aligned).... Maybe I'm just rambling, not to be confused with a Rambler (AMC)... Good luck on the next tests....
 
Update:
It's been awhile since I've posted any tests or progress, but the problem still persists. Have had the trans, SS, clutch assembly, and flywheel off several times and inspected everything. Even completely reassembled everyting without the trans and used a dummy input shaft and sleeve to check contact of the TO bearing to pressure plate and ensure the SS was aligned properly. Originally shortened the Z-bar about 0.5" and reworked to relengthen in an effort to gain back any lost through and imporve alignment to fork.

Initially, before starting the engine, the clutch seems to work well mechanically. With about 0.5" of play in the TO bearing to PP forks, there is good pressure and pedal feel/response; very strong pressure. After starting the engine and rear wheels off the ground, shifting through gears 1-4 and R, rotates the tires. Put on emergency brake, engine dies the first time, but not the second. Pedal then gets mushy and there's no longer any play in clucth fork. Oh yeah, replaced the ckutch disk as well.

This is a very perplexing problem and looks like it may be a bad pressure plate (Hays 30-012 3 roller assist) which is hard to believe since it's brand new. I even bench tested the unit with a crescent wrench to check the operation of the individual fingers and look for any uneven resistance or glitches.

This clutch problem is getting very frustrating and not looking forward to disassembling for a 5th time.. Wrote an email to Hays Tech Line for assistance or replacement/exchange instructions... Anyone know how to test a pressure plate?

Problem Refresher: Slipping clutch
 
i cant believe your still having problems, i have forgotten your orignal problem,,but to check your pressure plate you may want to send it back to the manufracturer,,,call then talk to them,, they will give you a return number,,,and then you will have to call them to follow up on how it checked out,,

i rebuild my mopar 4 speed this past year,,while it was apart i sent my center force plate back to them,, they checked it out told me that the clamping pressure was not as strong as it should be on a unit with such low miles,,i had it for 11 years in the car with 7000 miles on it,, they exchanged it for 60 bucks with a rebuilt unit,,,workis fine
 
fstfish66 and mullinax95 - Agreed. The original problem is that the clutch is not fully engaging.

No response from the Hays Tech Line yet, but can't wait any longer. However, will follow-up in parallel w/Hays just to get closure on this pressure plate.

Talked with Wayne Brewer today and no further insight over what's already been tried. So, ordered a McLeod pressure plate from him and should have installed in a couple of weeks.

Will post the results as soon as known...
 
Holy S%$T,I can,t believe you still haven,t got this problem figured out!I thought my install was long.I think you should have went with the centerforce,there pricey but you get what you pay for.Very bad that Hayes hasn,t straightened this out for you.That,s bull,hope you get it figured out and also your money back.Let us know.
 
i would call hays,,not wait on a return e mail,,,

im not saying its not impossible,,,but i doubt the hays came new not functioning correctly,,,some thing went wrong during the installl,,,

and i dont agree centerforce is not pricy compared to a ton of other clutch makers for street cars,,,i see several advertising in mopar magazines starting at 799.00 1200 .00 ..

i have run rebult plates,,,new hays plates,,i have 2 used in working order hays plates,,but they are a heavy plate,,and wil make a A body fire wall flex if is is not reinforced,,,

for a street car that is warmed up,,,in my opiniopn you cant beat a dual friction centerforce,,,i have 33 tall x 22 in wide tires,,4 link,, and a super charger,,centerforce,,is like less then 400.00 for the hole package,,,works great,,,roller assist too
 
Have you considered trying a stock bellhousing? Maybe the ss is no good/bent and that's why it was sold at the swap meet!
I've never had a problem with McCloud products, never did try Hays.
If it works on a stock bellhousing, then order a new ss and bite the bullet.
I know that it's extra work swapping bells again, but it should sort this problem out once and for all. You've done it 5 times allready, what's another 2?
I bet you are getting good at it by now and being pissed off at it makes the tranny manhandling easier!:-D
Tom.
 
fstfish66;You are correct that the disc in backwards would hit the crank bolts, but.....Years ago, i bought a '69 Coronet R/T that the owner sold me and said that it had a "new" clutch installed by a reputable performance shop. The clutch wouldn't disengage, and the shop insisted that it was because the firewall flexed too much because of the high pressure characteristics of the pressure plate. (this is where it gets good) I took it all apart, and the disc was installed backwards, they used some longer grade 3 bolts to achieve this feat, and the release bearing had seized and worn out the collar so bad that it came out in 2 pieces! Also, the only parts that were replaced were the disc and fork.(the disc still had the "flywheel side" sticker on it if you can believe that)I ordered a McCloud street and strip clutch kit complete, resurfaced the flywheel, installed it all and it worked flawlessly!The shop denied doing this and said the p/o changed it to keep the new stuff, and i know it was b.s.
Bottom line..... when there's a will, there's a way!:evil4:
Tom.
 
fstfish66 said:
i would call hays,,not wait on a return e mail,,,

im not saying its not impossible,,,but i doubt the hays came new not functioning correctly,,,some thing went wrong during the installl,,,

and i dont agree centerforce is not pricy compared to a ton of other clutch makers for street cars,,,i see several advertising in mopar magazines starting at 799.00 1200 .00 ..

i have run rebult plates,,,new hays plates,,i have 2 used in working order hays plates,,but they are a heavy plate,,and wil make a A body fire wall flex if is is not reinforced,,,

for a street car that is warmed up,,,in my opiniopn you cant beat a dual friction centerforce,,,i have 33 tall x 22 in wide tires,,4 link,, and a super charger,,centerforce,,is like less then 400.00 for the hole package,,,works great,,,roller assist too
Click to expand...
FstFish66,What I meant,and prices vary(US versus Canadian)A stock clutch and pressure plate $180 from Ma Mopar,My c.force setup was $400.This is what I mean by a little more expensive.Dartnut,a s.shield bent would be obvious from clutch detination(other than that,I don,t know how you could bend one?)There made very tuff!
 
pettybludart: Yeah, I know it's been taking awhile. Unfortunately, between long hours at work, coaching my daughters' b-ball teams on weekends, and other activities, limited on available car time. Went with the McLeod since that's what Brewer's had available not in a kit. Figured I could at least give Brewers some business after taking up so much of his trouble shooting time via phone. Should work ok...

fstfish66: Called Hays (Prestolite) in Cleveland, Ohio today and talked to a guy that was very apologetic and helpful. Will send the PP and clutch disk to him for diagnostics and replacement if bad. Was pleasantly surprised at the level of customer service. Was expecting to have to provide proof of purchase, etc. and none of that was required.

Fully agree that I can't beleive a brand new pp could be the problem, but am out of options at this point, so this was the last resort. Believe me, I was not thrilled with having to R&R the trans, bell, and clutch assembly as many times as I have to date...

Dartnut: Unfortuately, don't have a spare stock bell, z-bar, or pivot braket around or would have tried. Checked e-bay multiple times and would cost about $150 to try that option. While I purchased the sacttershield at a swap meet, it's in pretty good condition and would be fairly difficult to bend or dent. These things are made for safety and fairly bullet proof. But, again, have thought about your suggestion several times.... And yes, unfortunately getting very good and fast at trans R&R, but would love to move on...

Thanks all for your help...
 
First the good news... Received my new McLeod pressure plate from Brewers last week. Got everything torn down, reassembled, and went to test.

Now the bad news... Still have the original problem! There's good linkage adjustment with play when clutch is fully released, but with the car on jack stands, shift trans into 4th gears, release clutch, and rear wheels turn. Put on e-brake, engine RPMs drop, rev engine, and the squealing noise (Somewhat high pitched and tinny sounding). So, have now ruled out a bad pressure plate, but not sure what else to try.

Beginning to suspect the tranny again. I've just come fully circle...
 
ok im lost here now,,,i forget the what the problem was to begin with,,you sent the pressure plate in for testing,,,now you have a center force ???

what is the real problem here,,refresh my memory,,,
 
fstfish66: Sorry, I know this problem has turned in to a saga... The problem is that after the clutch pedal is released, the clutch engages, but under load, the clutch (I think) slips and there is a squealing noise. After a number of attempts to check, measure, alter, and change things out, I suspected the New Hays pressure plate. So, I sent that back to Hays for diagostics and in parallel, purchased a New McLeod pressure plate and the problem still persists. Have not heard back from Hays yet, but now I'm guessing they're going to say the pp is fine.

So, I'm back to square one and don't know what else to check.... Sorry for the long confusing thread....
 
are you saying that after you take your foot off of the clutch pedal,,it engauges ???? it should be engauged when your foot is off the pedal,,,

the only squealing would be from a bad or not properly installed throw out bearing,,,from what i can figure,, was this car orignally a stick car ?? v8 or slant 6 orignaly ??? maybe some more info or some pics of the clutch linkage would make it more visable to try to figure this thing out,,,,

was the trany new ??? old ??? rebuilt ???
 
Hey guys, I know it's very unlikely that the s/s would be bent, allthough i've seen stranger things happen when a car is t-boned or rolled, i was just shooting an idea into the mix, as you seem to be running out of options at this point.
I once bought a 8 3/4 that had a bent axle tube, the car was a head on victim, and another that was a rollover that the auto tranny had a small crack in it.
Never say never, again check it for squareness to be doubly sure. If you didn't live so far away i would send you a stock bellhousing etc. to try for free, from a known car that it worked properly on, but it would cost more for shipping than what it's worth.
just my 2 cents.
Tom.:-D
 
fstfish66 said:
are you saying that after you take your foot off of the clutch pedal,,it engauges ???? it should be engauged when your foot is off the pedal,,,

the only squealing would be from a bad or not properly installed throw out bearing,,,from what i can figure,, was this car orignally a stick car ?? v8 or slant 6 orignaly ??? maybe some more info or some pics of the clutch linkage would make it more visable to try to figure this thing out,,,,

was the trany new ??? old ??? rebuilt ???
Click to expand...
For what it,s worth $$ wise.I,d put a new throwout bearing on just to eliminate that.Also,no offence Dartnut,just those s.shields are made to handle exploding clutches was all I was saying.Very hard to bend!
 
Dartnut: Appreciate the thought, but have already check SS alignment to the pp and flywheel. Unfortunately, for the price of shipping a stock bellhousing to/from Canada, would be cheaper to buy from ebay. Plus, still need pivot and different z-bar. But, really do appreciate the offer. thx...

fstfish66: Thanks for the private note of encouragement. Have listed all the previous, but it is a long thread, so I'll relist.
  • Problem: with clutch pedal fully released and clutch engaged, under load (e-brake on or car on ground), a high pitch squeal comes from the clutch or tranny and the car won't move
  • Throwout bearing is new
  • With clutch pedal fully released, there is play in the fork, about .25," so the fork/TO bearing is released from pressure plate
  • Trans is used from swap meet and was claimed to be rebuilt, but no proof
  • Car was originally a slant six stick, but pivot bracket was fabricated to align z-bar in the correct position (horizontally/vertically) relative to the SFI scattershield
If not the clutch assembly, could the be something about the trans I could check that would cause slipping/squealing noise? Linkage has been properly aljusted w/slots aligned and shift levers checked to ensure engaged in full shift position. Also, mechanism to ensure both 1-2 and 3-4 are not simultaneously engaged is working properly...

I'm out of ideas or things to check...
 
Sounds like something is wrong with the transmission. You have changed,replaced, everything but the transmission so that's got to be the problem. Take the transmission to someone that has experience in rebuilding manual transmissions to have them look at it. Tell him exactly what you have done and told us that you did.

OR

Let it squeal until whatever it is tears up, burns up, catches on fire or explodes then you know where the problem was all along.

LOL!
 
very hard to diaignose from reading all this and not seing it,,

what is going on if the car is running,in netrual foot off the clutch pedal ??

next,,jack car up all 4 wheels off the ground, on jack stands car running in netrual,foot off the clutch pedal ,,,,

next car still in the air, running put it in any forward gear,,make sure you hold the brake pedal while putting it in gear or it may free wheel . car in the air,in a forward gear let clutch pedal out some one watching to see which wheel rotates,,push in clutch ,stop wheels with brake pedal,take out of gear,try a differnt foreward gear,,,same process,, then try a reverse gear,,,

car not running battery disconnected, try car in the air,,in netrual e brake off ,,manually turn drive shaft ,is it free to turn or binding ??? put in gear try to turn the tire,,see if the motor turns over,,,

all these tests will tell whats turning and whats not,, is the rear end good or unknown ??
 
matsucu06 said:
First the good news... Received my new McLeod pressure plate from Brewers last week. Got everything torn down, reassembled, and went to test.

Now the bad news... Still have the original problem! There's good linkage adjustment with play when clutch is fully released, but with the car on jack stands, shift trans into 4th gears, release clutch, and rear wheels turn. Put on e-brake, engine RPMs drop, rev engine, and the squealing noise (Somewhat high pitched and tinny sounding). So, have now ruled out a bad pressure plate, but not sure what else to try.

Beginning to suspect the tranny again. I've just come fully circle...
Click to expand...
I apologize if I missed this or not, I just skimmed through this thread - did you look further into the possibility of some binding at the crank? Was the crank originally drilled for a manual tranny? I think I read that you installed the roller-type pilot bearing, but don;t you sometimes have to trim the end of the input shaft for clearance issues? Maybe the end of the shaft is making contact with the crank and that's the squeaking and binding you are experiencing.

I think that issue would display all the symptoms you are describing.
 
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