Stock 318 building with Justin

-
Scott I think I have a TQ10 or 15 and one for a Jeep 258 6 the lobes are so tiny I can't regrind them and would not even give them away
Back when I was in business Super Shops/ Erson was a competitor- White box cams at premium prices 292 degrees duration- My Cam is BIGGER than your cam!
Care to take a guess who has the bargains in 214-224 cams and who the most expensive are.
I do not see the Edelbrock Performer any more only the Performer Plus Oh boy Oh boy
incidentally that list started off as a BBM list but most grinds were available for both
Garrett the HFT lobes in this duration range are shorter than the HR lobes by maybe 4-6 degrees for the same 200

Rusty- That's a fallacy or at least not always so
The MP lobes, Jones Lobes, Racer Brown has some, the easy Engle and Crane .904 lobes all last and all outperform the .842 lobes
The Lunati Mopar Voodoos and Chevy Voodoos all use the same formula- only the lifter is different
The Purple Power are mild and the Thumper even Milder
No reason to leave Torque on the table
you just have to be informed and careful
one way is to look at the spring pressures recommended
I think Hughes is unnecessarily over the top
Did you see the news on Billy G's new line of cams
Computer Smoothed like Crane did 40 years ago and Spintron Proven like Jones did with GM's Indy Chevy/ Buick / Olds Indy Car Programs
I would think GM R&D budget trumped Comp
Good to see comp improving their lobes but I'll beleive it when they replace the Extreme line which IMHO are brutal
 
Last edited:
Wyrmrider said:
Scott I think I have a TQ10 or 15 and one for a Jeep 258 6 the lobes are so tiny I can't regrind them and would not even give them away
Back when I was in business Super Shops/ Erson was a competitor- White box cams at premium prices 292 degrees duration- My Cam is BIGGER than your cam!
Care to take a guess who has the bargains in 214-224 cams and who the most expensive are.
I do not see the Edelbrock Performer any more only the Performer Plus Oh boy Oh boy
incidentally that list started off as a BBM list but most grinds were available for both
Garrett the HFT lobes in this duration range are shorter than the HR lobes by maybe 4-6 degrees for the same 200

Rusty- That's a fallacy or at least not always so
The MP lobes, Jones Lobes, Racer Brown has some, the easy Engle and Crane .904 lobes all last and all outperform the .842 lobes
The Lunati Mopar Voodoos and Chevy Voodoos all use the same formula- only the lifter is different
The Purple Power are mild and the Thumper even Milder
No reason to leave Torque on the table
you just have to be informed and careful
one way is to look at the spring pressures recommended
I think Hughes is unnecessarily over the top
Did you see the news on Billy G's new line of cams
Computer Smoothed like Crane did 40 years ago and Spintron Proven like Jones did with GM's Indy Chevy/ Buick / Olds Indy Car Programs
I would think GM R&D budget trumped Comp
Good to see comp improving their lobes but I'll beleive it when they replace the Extreme line which IMHO are brutal
Click to expand...

No fallacy about a loud valve train.
 
You got that right rusty, something's pounding itself to death, different thatn tappett clicking
What was trying to say that if starting with a clean sheet of paper I pick the rpm range, idle, vacuum, etc
then trial pick the dynamic compression that will actually work
then pick trial pick the cam events to give the dynamic compression
work in the head flows or figure out what works with rev range chosen
then pick the mechanical compression, piston etc- find what's available
then go around again
different than when building for a spec class where the mechanicals and maybe head and carb are givens
or as most often happens the parts are all bought or the engines built and the cam is an afterthought and I'm supposed to make it work
Those I give my "lifetime guarantee"
They come back unhappy and want to make good on the guarantee
and I ask them
How long do you want to live?
even so on the white box cams you have choices of LCA from 110-114
 
RustyRatRod said:
There's a place for everything. Dinosaur lobes can come in handy if you're building a street only engine and want your valve train to last.
Click to expand...

True.
Mike has come up with some great profiles, though again this is a budget build.
Cams arent cheap, springs get pricey when the ramp speeds up...unless you know where parts come from and who reboxes what. I think with head work I'm doing and the Schneider .420 it will be plenty. Still waiting on the pistons to show, says "in route" "arriving today"
 
Wyrmrider said:
Scott I think I have a TQ10 or 15 and one for a Jeep 258 6 the lobes are so tiny I can't regrind them and would not even give them away
Back when I was in business Super Shops/ Erson was a competitor- White box cams at premium prices 292 degrees duration- My Cam is BIGGER than your cam!
Care to take a guess who has the bargains in 214-224 cams and who the most expensive are.
I do not see the Edelbrock Performer any more only the Performer Plus Oh boy Oh boy
incidentally that list started off as a BBM list but most grinds were available for both
Garrett the HFT lobes in this duration range are shorter than the HR lobes by maybe 4-6 degrees for the same 200

Rusty- That's a fallacy or at least not always so
The MP lobes, Jones Lobes, Racer Brown has some, the easy Engle and Crane .904 lobes all last and all outperform the .842 lobes
The Lunati Mopar Voodoos and Chevy Voodoos all use the same formula- only the lifter is different
The Purple Power are mild and the Thumper even Milder
No reason to leave Torque on the table
you just have to be informed and careful
one way is to look at the spring pressures recommended
I think Hughes is unnecessarily over the top
Did you see the news on Billy G's new line of cams
Computer Smoothed like Crane did 40 years ago and Spintron Proven like Jones did with GM's Indy Chevy/ Buick / Olds Indy Car Programs
I would think GM R&D budget trumped Comp
Good to see comp improving their lobes but I'll beleive it when they replace the Extreme line which IMHO are brutal
Click to expand...
The Elgin catalog -cheap prices quite a few grinds-
 
Speaking of cams, I pulled what looks to be an after market cam from a 1985 360 from a minimal emissions equipped (no factory EGR) D-350. Lobe lift measures .280 intake and exhaust for a .420 at the valve and it's marked 360 D on the back. Anyone ever see one or know any specs?
 
RustyRatRod said:
Did you see the intake I tagged you in? Pecker.
Click to expand...
Tosser.
Yeah, not sure on that one.
Side note...
I decided the heads will be 60cc and compression will be around 8.75, unless I have them pull .020 off each bank, then around 9 . The diff is 7.79ish vs 8ish dynamic.
 
Pistons showed up, I was in the wrecking yard pulling cracked heads...so I didn't get to the shop. They're shiny and heavy....exactly what you would expect for $105.00 in 2020 . Stock replacement in other words. Haven't changed batteries in a minute but roughly 620/154= 774.

20200501_194832.jpg


View attachment 1715520413

View attachment 1715520414
 
Wyrmrider said:
Garrett
move over to your thread
but you do not want anything to do with 360 lobes
BTDT 40 years ago
here's some specs at .004
278/282 198/199 410/412 111LCA Melling 23103 Timing 16-82 61-46 59 ovlp stock cam look where the intake closes I know I know not my ovlp numbers
278/282 197/199 410/411 111LC 2896283 Wolverine CS 4115 and the amount of lift you get with that duration, really long ramps
I threw it into the list so you can see where it fits along with the DC 260

All these cams may be too big (except the Jones) all are at .004 for those doing DCR calcs In duration order
A spread of 20 degrees advertised in the 214-224 range
note how the white box cams come in 276, 280 and 288 flavors for 214-224 cams (copycats)

264 202 461 Jones “Motorhome” @.004 ## intake lobe

270-290 214.224 440/460 112 Schneider no other matching lobes but IDK about the in/ ex spread

272 216 454 110 *** @.004 52 overlap single pattern\ Crane/ CD ***
272/284 216/218 454/480 112LCA Crane 693941 2000-5000 H-272-2-NC “Max Velocity”

276 288 218 228 441/441 114 Sum 6901
276/288 218.228 441 109 Elgin 1223P 54 ovlp

278/282 198/199 410/412 111LCA Melling 23103 16-82 61-46 59 ovlp stock cam
278/282 197/199 410/411 111LC 2896283 Wolverine CS 4115

278/278 222/222 454.454 Cam Dynamics 278H10
278/290 222/234 467/494 114LCA 2,200-5,200 Crane H278-2 and HMV-278-2-NC @.004

279/289 209/220 .429/444 114 340 cam [email protected] SP CS-644 51 overlap

280/290 214/224 .443/,465 112 Elgin E936-P WG-1161 Michgan-2053 @.004

284 206 434 74 IC stock 440 @.004 Intake
284 212 431 DC 260 @.004 ## early 115@200
284/// 221/228 430/450 110LCA P4453759AE later MP profile

288/298 214/224 .444/467 112 Crower 288H PowerBeast & Pontiac & ChevyTorque Beast **

289 220 .444 68 340 4 speed intake @.004

292/292 214/214 .449 Erson TQ-20 single pattern cam



## Jones motorhome has 50% greater duration @.275 than the DC 260 while 20 degrees shorter seat

Note that the DC 260, while having the same duration and lift than the 440, is fatter



** Melling ,(Summit (BBM) Speed Pro CS-1019R 288-298 @.006 lift MUST BE VALVE or .004 w/ 1.5 rocker 2200-5200 61 overlap



*** Cam dynamics & Crane 15505 272H10, Elgin 1789P, Summit 1789

“largest stock engine cam works best with 9:1 and gears 1,500-5200”
Click to expand...


Not attempting to derail here, but I learned something interesting and got to apply it tonight. I now have a whole different opinion of the lowly 360 cam if it's used for the right application. We took a 1993 5.2 magnum and installed a 1988 roller cam out of a 360 and got .437/.455 lift with the 1.6 rockers, and picked up a little extra exhaust duration. This also put us from a 113 LSA to a 109, and then we put a chinese airgap with a 600 edelbrock. This is a very happy combination in a W100 with an HD 4 speed and 3.21 gears rolling on 31/10.50-15's, even with a set of 1968 318 truck manifolds dumping into 2-1/2 inch duals. Whole different animal than the roller cam 302 head 318 that it replaced.
 
Okay so in typical fashion I'm waiting on the shop to let me know when the rotating assembly is back from the balance guy so I can pick it up. They happen to be doing a couple 273 motors as well, seen some 315 heads and a block honed .030. Needless to say, they're busy and that's good for them.
Another shop I was using just closed its doors, i got all the heads and parts from them as soon as I heard. Not gonna hang my *** out to dry. So everything's at the one shop now. I was really hoping I'd have it all back by now, just another day or so..Machine shops...
 
Got the heads back.
Cc'd the chambers @72cc...that coupled with pistons .057 in the hole...8.1 compression.

So...Gonna mill'em about .047 to roughly 63cc
Taking .040 off the face as well for fitment, it's a little light the formula.. but intake gaskets come .030-.060 and then some so it will line up fine.

Enginetech [email protected] ootb..is probably around .047 crushed/typically...so using that figure and 63cc head, if the Schneider 256/260 hyd is used its actual ivc of 58...probably adv it 2 degrees piston would be .057 in the hole... do the math and it looks something like 145 psi cranking..Something like 8.78 static. 7.4 dynamic. Stock'ish.
 
Last edited:
Wyrmrider said:
047
piston .020 out?
Click to expand...
Pistons are down .057
Heads are 72 cc. I'm milling them .047 if I use that cam. I'm thinking about a grind with an earlier closing would be better. After the conversation I had today with the grinder... let's just say I'm not impressed.
Side note is these 163/593 have the same 273 casting intake port that people "say" is best. You barely have to touch the short turn, just bowl and gasket match. Might not even do the guide profiling. I'll post pics as I go tomorrow. I have fk ton of stuff to do like ship some heads out east and get 2 motors together for this weekend.
 
Last edited:
did you talk with Cantrell?
they have to have a better master
say a copy of a mp 248
that one gives up a lot of lift and area to even a conservative cam like MP
cheers
 
Wyrmrider said:
did you talk with Cantrell?
they have to have a better master
say a copy of a mp 248
that one gives up a lot of lift and area to even a conservative cam like MP
cheers
Click to expand...
Okay so I had some waiting time a lot more than I thought. That's machine shops. I also broke my toe, and sprained my ankle in between, but enough of the woe is me...I rethought the cam and now I just ordered it.
In light of the usage...and the head mods..
This is the cam..
ENGLE CAMS k52/54 hyd
Int.458- exh.470
209/[email protected]
254/260 adv
Lsa 112
Int Centerline 110
33 o lap, next to stock.
I wanted to open the valve where the heads work..and I've got that now.
It'll Idle stockish , pull mountains of vac..and still put you back in the seat right off idle.
The final compression on paper is 8.76, I milled .045 off them and they check at 64cc now. Cam should close at about 56, give around 150 cranking.
 
Last edited:
should work good
and they are close to you
fatter nose should wear well
say compared to the Lunati 701
  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 256/262 Engle is in the 260 range lunati @.006 engle @.008
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/220 lunati has faster action which you don't need
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .454/.475 lift is about the same
  • LSA/ICL: 112/108 engle is 110 but I bet they grind it just for U
  • RPM Range: 1000-5500
you are so much better off either way than with a universal cam
https://www.chevelles.com/forums/155-2006/18213-anything-better-than-xe262.html
 
Wyrmrider said:
should work good
and they are close to you
fatter nose should wear well
say compared to the Lunati 701
  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 256/262 Engle is in the 260 range lunati @.006 engle @.008
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/220 lunati has faster action which you don't need
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .454/.475 lift is about the same
  • LSA/ICL: 112/108 engle is 110 but I bet they grind it just for U
  • RPM Range: 1000-5500
you are so much better off either way than with a universal cam
anything better than the xe262? - Chevelle Tech
Click to expand...
He switched up the lsa.
Could have done 214/220, i opted for 209/214 dont need it here.

Howard had a
255/261 .479/.490 something 110
38 o lap.
 
Howard's are even faster lobes than Lunati
you've been saying you did not want or need that
stock rockers
I agree
I would have had jones grind one
you did fine and much better than Schneiders mentioned or comp
I suspect Cantrell has some better lobes than the sbc profiles you were shown
 
@MOPAROFFICIAL This build has a target label of meeting emissions while adding some low end grunt with a long life intention, correct?

A basic rebuild with tweaked/upgraded parts?
 
rumblefish360 said:
@MOPAROFFICIAL This build has a target label of meeting emissions while adding some low end grunt with a long life intention, correct?

A basic rebuild with tweaked/upgraded parts?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Stock parts with the exception of the camshaft. Goal is to build an ca emissions 318 afforably with stock replacement parts at the best deals anyone can fine online, without sacrificing quality, and in the process, build more power with some simple porting and milling for compression...'which is a big key to having any jump/tq under the power band and efficiency'. This engine... has no 'under the power band' ..lol, not with this cam.. it's the tq we're after. Truck power.
Anyone can build this and substitute 360 heads milled .045 , so it's very much an 'anyone can do this' build and be real close to what this will be. Only the port volume effect will play out.
 
Wyrmrider said:
Howard's are even faster lobes than Lunati
you've been saying you did not want or need that
stock rockers
I agree
I would have had jones grind one
you did fine and much better than Schneiders mentioned or comp
I suspect Cantrell has some better lobes than the sbc profiles you were shown
Click to expand...
It's a revised grind engle did for Hughes in the olden days. They parted ways because Hughes traded ramp speed for longevity.
Pulling a motor over a lobe is not worth 7 hp it may have given. "Overthinking" is a tall wall to climb.
 
So there’s no much “sense” in going for a steep ramp cam. The upgrade would have to be very mild as you have mentioned due to a a emissions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top