Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

[Treblig]

Managed to get a little more work done on the TV/Accel brackets. I already had the TV cable at the location it needs to be. Today I measured the Cuda accelerator linkage distance and it's very close to 5 1/2 inches from the carb pivot bolt/screw to the accel cable bracket/clamp. I had to weld a small triangular piece of metal to the Mopar intake bracket so I could move the Mopar accel bracket/clamp to the right spot. First pic is the Mopar bracket with the small piece of metal tack welded onto it. The second pic is the new Mopar bracket mounted on the intake. Third pic is with the measurement at about 5 1/2" for the Cuda accel linkage.
All the other pics just show all brackets installed even though I need to still do some trimming and welding and paint. The orange GM bracket will need to be trimmed as it sticks too high up above everything else (if you look close you can see a silver line on the top area of the orange bracket where I plan to trim). Also I plan to slot out the holes to give me some minor adjustment (front to back) on the TV mount and the accel mount/clamp. Be careful not to make the attach point for the TV cable too flimsy, if it moves too easily when you stomp on the gas it might give the tranny a false sense of when to shift. I'm probably going to weld a small gusset underneath the orange piece. Should look nice when I'm done.


treblig

 

[Treblig]

Ok now it's really getting close. I'll stop on it for now and work on something else. I finish welded the triangular bracket and cut off that one piece of the orange part that was sticking up. Slotted the holes still need to hit them with a rat tale. I also made a gusset and welded it in place to ensure that the TV cable bracket doesn't flex back and forth. I'll clean it up some more later and sand blast it and paint.

Treblig

 

[sdcarsey]

Do I need:
-pressure regulator valve - Yes
-hardened stator support - not needed unless you put a lot of miles on the car in your set-up
-10 vane pump (I think this is a no brainer) - No more than it cost - Yes
-hardened pump rings (these go with the pump) -no more than they are i'd install them but usually come with pump
-2nd gear Kevlar band - with the band you can use the kevlar, but don't use the wider one unless you replace the drum with a new unit, it will only grab on the edges and wear uneven
-Bearing (sun gear to internal gear) - check for wear in these areas
-Bearing thrust rear carrier for lo/reverse roller clutch
plate (lo/reverse clutch waved) plate (direct clutch backing 4.50mm) - always replace these bearing and check for wear here also
-9 friction plates in the lo/reverse clutch pack - anytime you can add clutches your better off
- billet servos - some of these factory pieces cracked and will get wedged sideways and pinch seals, etc. Plus you get great firm shifts.

- Once again this is based on what I've read about your set-up in your thread. You can do a lot more and make sure you get 100k trouble free miles out of it, but figure seals will fail before you reach this point. Like Transman said I assume your replacing all seals, bushings, bearings, etc.

I'll get you some part #'s when I get home, I'm sure I have a set in the garage. Until then you can check out this site, they have some explanations about their parts better than some sites, but their site isn't the best to navigate. Just thought it may help out. And once again, great work man!
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/200-4r.htm

 

[Treblig]

Thanks for the KUDOS!! LOL NO rush on the part numbers, I do need them but I still have quite a few weeks before I actually install the tranny.
You discussed:
hardened stator support - not needed unless you put a lot of miles on the car in your set-up

Just for clarification, this car will be a daily driver. I'll use it to take my little girl to and from school every day (she may even end up driving it in a few years). During the day the car will take me all around town BLOWING away any wannabe street cars (mild street races). You know where you accelerate kinda hard off the light without really stomping it to the floor. But it will be driven a lot. So when you say "not needed unless you put a lot of miles on the car in your set-up" I guess the answer is yes to the hardened stator support???

The trans will be gone through 100 percent absolutely!! I'll check out the web site. One more thing (really important). I want the trans to shift firm BUT NOT HARD. Maybe just a little firmer than stock, like maybe a Corvette or highway patrol Camaro. Which kit do I buy to get this result, I definitely don't want the gears to hit hard as my little girl might drive this car some day but I don't want a lazy shift either. Is that possible?? Be specific.

I'll keep posting as long as there is interest.

Thanks again for the encouragement,
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

One more very important question. I know that the 318 is internally balanced. Does anyone know if the GM 2004R torque converter is neutrally balanced. I'm a Chevy guy and I've built many Chevy engines so the question has never crossed my mind. Mopars have that internal/external balance thing.

thanks,
treblig in tex

 

[Treblig]

Another small problem that everyone should be aware of. I'm finally getting around to mocking up the trans and engine together to check for converter/flexplate spacing. I don't want to get under the car and find a problem. I had put the TCI adapter plate on the engine before but never bolted it down completely because I was just checking to make sure they had sent me the correct plate. But this time I'm going to bolt the tranny to the engine so it has to be a complete installation.

I installed the adapter plate and started screwing in the taper headed screws but I couldn't get the plate to completely mate against the engine. I got my brass hammer and tried tapping on it near the engine alignment pins to get it to seat. No matter how hard I hit it, it wouldn't mate against the back face of the engine. I had followed the TCI instruction to the letter. I figured something was wrong so I removed the plate and started looking for the reason the plate wouldn't seat. After looking at the back of the block for a while I noticed that the alignment pins were sticking out pretty far. Then it hit me!!!! The TCI adapter is only 1/4" thick but normally the Mopar 904 tranny has through holes for the alignment pins. I got my scale (graduated ruler) and checked the pins and they were sticking out 3/8 of an inch. Because of the TCI adapter is only a 1/4" plate the pins MUST BE sticking out less than 1/4". I read the instructions again and there was no mention of this possible problem. To make things worse the holes (for the engine pins) in the adapter plate overlap the alignment pin on the backside of the plate (the ones for the tranny) so once the engine pins hit the back side of the adapter tranny pins it won't go any further leaving a gap between the plate and the engine.

I got my large brass mallet and hammered on the pins until they measured less than a 1/4 inch and now I'm ready to install the tranny with torque converter. DON'T KNOCK THE PINS IN TOO FAR BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE FULL DIAMETER ON THE ENDS, YOU NEED FULL DIAMETER IN THE ALIGNMENT HOLES TO GET PROPER ALIGNMENT!!! also noticed that one of the tapered headed screws (furnished) wasn't flush (or below) the plate surface. This is a big deal because it will keep the tranny from completely mating to the engine, there may be some torque converter/engine alignment issues as well. I will have to think about this for a while to determine the best course of action.

SEE PICS

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here are some better pics of the protruding taper headed bolts. I'm a machinist but I don't own a machine shop so I can't just borrow a vertical mill and increase the depth of the taper in the adapter plate. But I can (if necessary grind down the top face of the tapered screw. It's only sticking up about .008"-.015" so it won't weaken it much at all. I say only .008" to .015" but that's a lot when it comes to transmission/engine/torque converter alignment!! Power from the engine has to be applied in a perfectly straight line so it doesn't blow apart.
Then again it might be the purple paint in the tapered hole...I'll have to check it out.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Got everything bolted together. Of course that one tapered bolt caused the tranny to stand off a few thousandths but that didn't stop me from determining if I had sufficient converter to flex plate clearance. Someone on this thread wanted to see how everything bolted up but now I can't remember who it was. The gap between the converter and flex plate is pretty large but the TCI kit comes with some 3/8" spacers. I measured the gap (with the converter pushed all the way into the tranny) and I got a little over 1/2". If you subtract the thickness of the 3/8" spacer you end up with 1/8" (maybe a little more) actual space before pulling the converter forward. In the pics you can see the spacer I'm holding in place. Didn't have much trouble. I still need to check and determine how much of the converter pilot engages the TCI crank adapter plate. Very hard to see once the converter is bolted up so I'll just have to calculate based on measurements taken off the trans/converter and engine/flex plate/crank adapter.
But that won't be until tomorrow.........

COMMENTS/SUGGESTIONS/QUESTIONS????

Treblig

 

[transman]

This is why when I worked in the converter industry, we custom built converters for such applications.

Right now the only thing that is supporting the converter in the front is the flex plate, and they call them a flex plate for a good reason.

From everything I've been told from people a lot smarter than me, the converter MUST engage the hole in the crank.

A quick question. Is the hole in the adapter the same size as the crank pilot?

Another question. Is the transmission bolted up to the engine as it would be in your car? If it is, there should be no clearance as your photos indicate between the mount pad of the converter and the flex plate.

 

[Treblig]

That's what I'm going to check in just a few minutes. Now that I've mocked up the engine and tranny together I'm going see how much the converter pilot engages the TCI adapter plate (bright red item attached to crank). I had to mate the tranny to the engine with the TCI adapter ring just to see how much clearance I had between the converter and the flex plate. To answer one of your other questions, the converter pilot fits very snug into the back of the crank adapter. Everything I read says that the flex plate does flex toward the rear and if you don't have to pull the converter forward at least 1/8" the converter can damage the front pump when the flex plate moves toward the rear under load. If you have too much clearance and pull the converter too far forward to get it to mate with the flex plate you run the risk of disengaging the converter from the front pump when gives you a different problem. So 1/8" to 3/16" clearance is recommended for GM set-ups. Will have pics on the issue later.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Here are the pics of the converter with crank adapter and flex plate. The crank adapter is machined to accept the 2004R converter pilot, it fits snug. In the pics you can see the spacers between the flex plate and the converter bosses. When I assemble these three parts off the engine I can simulate the actual amount of engagement between the converter pilot and the crank adapter. Once assembled with the TCI spacers the converter pilot goes into the crank adapter pilot hole about 3/16". That should be plenty of engagement to ensure proper alignment of the parts. If I needed more engagement of the converter pilot I could make a 1/16" spacer to put between the crank adapter and the flex plate effectively moving the crank adapter towards the rear and making it engage the converter boss more without affecting any of the other components.

In the last pic you can see the slots in the converter nose. These holes engage the pump inside the tranny, if you pull the converter too far forward when bolting to the flex plate you can accidently disengage the slots from the pump. I believe the Mopar converter is very similar. If there is no clearance at all before you pull the converter forward then you run the risk of the flex plate flexing toward the rear and forcing the nose of the converter into the pump in a way that could damage components. At least that's what everything I've read tells me. Again, I'm not an expert but I do have a few books on the 700R4.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Found another small problem that can cause a major delay during installation. My barracuda has a 360 magnum exhaust manifold on the passenger's side. Because of where the manifold exits my exhaust pipe passes very close to where the TCI adapter will be. On a 318 there is a square boss that sticks out on the passenger's side near the back of the block (see pics). My exhaust pipe passes just below that square boss. Using my dummy block I installed the TCI adapter and marked the adapter in the area that the exhaust pipe is located. See PICS.
Then I took the adapter and placed it on the tranny and found that the 2004R tranny has a large bulge just below and behind the area where the square boss projects from the engine. So to be safe I plan on trimming a good chuck of the tranny bulge so that I won't have any exhaust clearance issues when I install the tranny.

The first four pics are with the adapter on my dummy engine showing the square boss and the area that I might need to trim on the adapter.
The next two pics are of the adapter on the tranny showing the large bulge and the blue magic marker showing where I plan to trim the tranny housing.

The last pic shows the view from under my car. It shows the exhaust as it passes behind and below that square boss.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Well now it's almost nice (SEE PICS) enough to show your Mom....LOL. It's not perfect but I'll make it better after I get some more important things done (like trimming the trans housing and adapter. Wifey ordered my 4:10 Richmond gears for me (don't tell anyone but it's one of my Christmas presents).

Relatives are planning on invading my space and time. Hope to work on project as much as possible during holidays. We'll see!!!
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

I went outside to double check the areas (adapter and tranny) that need to be trimmed for my exhaust and got to thinking about those darn tapered headed bolts that hold the adapter on the block. It just didn't make sense that I couldn't get the tranny to pull flush with the block/adapter. You'll have to read my previous posts to know what I'm talking about. Anyway I thought that maybe I got too much paint in some of the tapered holes so I got the bolts out (ones supplied with kit) and started checking. I'll be damned if I didn't find another big problem. On a Mopar small block you have numerous bolt holes in the back of the block for attaching the tranny. Most are 3/8" coarse thread but the bottom two on either side are through holes for 7/16" bolts with nuts at least that's what TCI supplied (see pics), you can even read about them in their installation instructions. After it dawned on me that there were two sizes of bolts I started doing some checking. I examined the tapered holes cut in the adapter and as close as I could tell they were cut exactly the same in diameter and depth. I got my calipers and check the max diameter of the taper and the through hole. all were the same. I guess they made them all the same for ease of production. They probably used a CNC from the looks of it. But by doing it the fast and easy way they caused a problem. Since the holes and the tapers are all the same they fit the small 3/8" tapered bolts perfectly but since the 7/16" bolt is a little larger the tapered portion is also a little larger. The taper is the same (it is standard), but as the tapered bolts increase in size the bolt head gets larger to maintain strength. This is why I couldn't get the tranny to pull flush!!!

The larger 7/16 bolts requires a deeper hole (tapered portion) in order for the head to be flush or below the surface. They made the holes to fit the 3/8" bolts but the larger 7/16" bolts won't go down far enough which will interfere with the mating of the components. Look at the pics and remember to check your adapter if you plan to do what I am doing. I have no idea how Mopar To Ya got his to bolt up properly unless TCI changed their CNC programing between then and now. Either way, I know for a fact, that if mine is this way then every single adapter they produce will be the same until the CNC programming is changed. I guess I could be wrong and you can bet that I will call TCI Monday but if you look at the pics you will see the 7/16" bolts standing off (.008 - .010) and the 3/8" bolt below flush. As everyone knows this throws the whole drive train out of alignment. In fact .008-.010 thousandths at the back of the block would be .030-.040 at the trans tail housing. The simple fix is to use 3/8" tapered bolts and nuts for the two lower holes on the adapter so that's not a big deal. The big deal is for all those who don't notice this problem and bolt there stuff together and blow a tranny. The last pic is the 3/8 bolt as you can see it's below flush. The other pics show the supplied bolts with the instructions which you can probably read if you look closely. The other pics are the holes in the back of the block.


AGAIN - I could be all wrong (I hope I'm wrong) but the instructions clearly read, "Bolt adapter plate to engine using bolts provided with kit (four 3/8" X 16 X 3/4) flat head socket cap screws, Two 7/16" X 14 x 2" Flat socket head cap screws and two 7/16" X 14 Nylon Lock Nuts". Just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind I used my calipers on the bolt heads and the 7/16" bolt head is about .065" -.070" bigger.

And yes, I did remove any paint left in the holes just in case. It made almost no difference at all (.001" -.002")
treblig

 

[Treblig]

Well now isn't that better...more exhaust clearance and less weight!! LOL

I trimmed off the TCI adapter a little more for the passenger's side exhaust then I trimmed some off the 2004R bell housing now I should have plenty of clearance for the install. I know, I know, you're saying "but you cut off the part of the tranny housing ear where the torque converter/flex plate pan attaches!!" Yes I did, but it's no big deal because the 2004R has a large flat area on that side (SEE LAST PIC) where I can drill and tap a hole for a new pan screw. I probably also reshape the pan to cover the resulting hole created by my surgery. We'll see. It's Sunday, give me a break!!

PS - I have to hurry and get as much done today as possible because all during the week I help a friend of my who is building a '40 Ford Hot Rod.

treblig

 

[Treblig]

One important item I forgot about. If anyone does decide to go with a 2004R tranny take your time and find one with the best TAG. A few days ago I posted the TAG codes on this thread. If you happen to find a tranny with the "good" TAG you're a step ahead of everyone else because the KZF (Hurst 442/Hurst), CZF (85-88 SS Monte Carlo), BRF (86-87 GN/T-type/Turbo Regals, TAF (89 Turbo Trans Am), OZ (Hurst Olds) are some of the ones with the "goodies" inside and will require less modifications. The tag is very obviously attached to the lower rear passenger's side of the tranny. (SEE PICS). I took a few pics because the lighting wasn't too good.

Treblig

 

[transman]

Here are the pics of the converter with crank adapter and flex plate. The crank adapter is machined to accept the 2004R converter pilot, it fits snug. In the pics you can see the spacers between the flex plate and the converter bosses. When I assemble these three parts off the engine I can simulate the actual amount of engagement between the converter pilot and the crank adapter. Once assembled with the TCI spacers the converter pilot goes into the crank adapter pilot hole about 3/16". That should be plenty of engagement to ensure proper alignment of the parts. If I needed more engagement of the converter pilot I could make a 1/16" spacer to put between the crank adapter and the flex plate effectively moving the crank adapter towards the rear and making it engage the converter boss more without affecting any of the other components.

In the last pic you can see the slots in the converter nose. These holes engage the pump inside the tranny, if you pull the converter too far forward when bolting to the flex plate you can accidently disengage the slots from the pump. I believe the Mopar converter is very similar. If there is no clearance at all before you pull the converter forward then you run the risk of the flex plate flexing toward the rear and forcing the nose of the converter into the pump in a way that could damage components. At least that's what everything I've read tells me. Again, I'm not an expert but I do have a few books on the 700R4.

Treblig

From looking at the photos (nice job by the way), it looks like it's all going to fit, and you're right, the converter slots must engage the pump gear tangs. I don't know how good the photos are, but don't use that converter. The hub looks like it's worn excessively and needs to be replaced.. I believe somewhere in this thread you're going to get another converter. The thing to remember is the converter hub must have a mirror finish to it, just like a crank journal, or it will be leak city. As I mentioned before, use a teflon coated bushing for the pump. I remember reading something when that bushing was first introduced that it had to do with bushings siezing on the converter hub because of electrical current passing through from the transmission. I think that the article stated GM did this because of the amount of electronic components that transmissions were starting to get in them. The added benefit of course was it was just plain a better bushing from a lube point.

 

[Treblig]

Transman, The Teflon coated pump bushing is on the list already. I'm buying a new converter (probably NON lock-up). Next I tackle the trans fluid fitting/lines. My Cuda already has an automatic so the lines are already there. The one small problem is that Mopar ran the lines on the driver's side because that's where the lines go into the 904. GM puts there lines on the passenger's side. And of course the fitting are completely different but it's not a big deal. Tomorrow I plan to visit the store that has every fitting known to man. In the first pic you can see the GM fittings. The large fitting screws into the 2004R trans (as you can see in the second pic) and the small fitting will normally be part of the flared trans fluid hard line. The third pic is the fitting that screws into the 904. I plan to get an adapter fitting to adapt the 904 trans line flared fitting to the GM trans line fitting. This way I can simply mate a small section of GM trans line (they come in any length) from the 904 line to the 2004R. I'll show all this later as I get the parts together.. I'm trying to NOT have to make new lines by using what's already there. I feel like I'm writing a book!!!!!LOL

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

I spent $4 on fittings to adapt the Mopar trans line to the GM line. Bought two GM sized trans lines 48" & 36" to run from driver's side over to passenger side of trans. I'll probably run the lines between the trans cross member and the rear of the tranny pan tucked up nice and high attached to a bracket. I'll shows pics after the install, it's pretty simple. Next I tackle the trans inspection cover. Since I loped off one the 2004R tranny ears I'll have to drill and tap one new threaded hole into the tranny housing. Since GM uses the starter on the passenger's side I probably weld up the stock starter hole (see pic) and make a new hole for the Mopar starter on the driver's side. I'll also modify the passenger's side of the inspection cover to properly fit against the area where I cut off the ear, just to make it look nice and also keep any oil/trans fluid that might leak from being slung out the side. Will show pics as it progresses. Anyone else doing this probably wouldn't go to this much trouble but my tranny's not ready yet and the gears haven't arrived yet so I have time to fool around.


PS - Paid $10 for the inspection pan.
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Talked to TCI today. The guy I talked to seemed to be having a hard time understanding the problem. He wrote down what I said and told me that he would pass the info to the people in the "other" building. I asked him if they manufactured the adapters in house and he said yes. He said that the folks in the other building would contact me after the holidays (evidently they're all gone for the holidays) to discuss the problem with the 7/16" tapered bolts not going flush with the adapter plate (see previous posts for details). Either way, I've already bought two 3/8" X 2" tapered headed bolts to use in place of the 7/16" bolts. I don't have much choice since I've already cut down the adapter I can't exactly send it back. I told the guy that every adapter that they've sent out (like mine) will have the same problem. I guess I should have talked to the owner or a manager. I'll be sure and do that when they call back.:banghead:

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Twas the night before Christmas and all through the house, not a creature was stirring not even a....WAIT A MINUTE!!!! There's Treblig with his wire feed welder!!!
Update on tranny inspection cover mods. No rest for Santa's helpers!!
Now I need to carefully cut out the Mopar starter hole.
Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Last installment of work before Christmas. Cutout the Mopar starter hole in the GM tranny inspection cover. Pretty much self explanatory SEE PICS.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all those following this thread (and everybody else also)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

What a pleasant surprise. My Richmond 4:10 gears came in late last night UPS and I got to open the box this morning for Christmas!!!!!:blob:

Life is Good!!!

Treblig

 

[Woods74]

Good job, Merry Christmas!

 

[Treblig]

Well here's an interesting problem. Seems like the GM trans inspection pan wasn't designed to fit with the Mopar 318 and the TCI adapter. What a lack of shortsightedness on the part of GM???? Evidently there isn't enough room for the front part of the pan to slip between the adapter and the flex plate. It would fit if I cut off the whole bottom half of the adapter...but I'm not falling for that one. The adapter needs the bottom half to maintain a little structural integrity and provide something solid for the starter to push against. So I plan to cut a semi-circle out of the pan and leave about 3/4" extra to form a bend to retain some of the pan's rigidity.
Since much of whatever leaks from the tranny or rear main seal(s) gets slung off by flex plate I'll leave a lip that extends just past the gear teeth to still be effective as a tranny pan.
You'll have to wait and see what I mean.


Treblig