Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

[Treblig]

^ What's that for? Just because? Going nutso? Yay! Get some paint in there with a nozzle or wand. Rustoleum BBQ with a cut-off tip and a wd40 smart wand gets r done!

What's that for?? The plates reinforce the upper cross member so that after I cut out a section it will still retain some of it's structural integrity.
Going Nutso?? Well yes!!
Get some paint?? I didn't want to paint anything until after I took the pics because paint makes it hard to see what I have done. If I paint it then take pics you can't see the cut lines and would make it difficult for someone else to copy what I did.

Now in the pics I just posted you can see the part that I removed and you can see how it weakens the upper cross member (remember, the torsion rods are continuously trying to twist the upper cross member). The first pics are of the "cut" torque shaft (shifter linkage). I cut it "long" not knowing how short it needed to be. If you look close you can see the silver line where I plan to do the surgery on the cross member. Next pics show the rough cut on the upper cross member. The other pics show the rod end at the top of the torque shaft and the custom bell crank (lever) that will be used to link the torque shaft lever to the trans selector lever. As you can see the new lever needs to hung the floor board so that it doesn't end up hitting the trans housing (2004R is fatter).
In the last pic you can see the short brace I made to support the rod end which will help keep the torque shaft from flexing when you're banging gears.
Ran out of pic space again so I'll either post more later tonight or post the rest tomorrow. By the time I get back home tomorrow I should have the tranny in the car in which case I'll have way more pics than I can post.


FYI - there are two tube type spacers inside the upper cross member. These tubes keep the cross member from collapsing when you tighten the large bolts that hold the lower cross member in place. These two tubes are attached to each other by a long plate inside the cross member. When you try and cut through the cross member you'll run right into this tube (which is pretty thick). Just be prepared to break some cutting blades and have a few curse words handy!!
Treblig

 

[RedFish]

The lower end of the shift rod really should be attached to the trans so it moves with the trans. Maybe the way you have it there will work fine but you should be aware...
After the left biscuit type motor support would break the engine/ trans would sometimes move enough to change gears even with the OEM design ( rod attached to the trans ).

 

[Treblig]

The lower end of the shift rod really should be attached to the trans so it moves with the trans. Maybe the way you have it there will work fine but you should be aware...
After the left biscuit type motor support would break the engine/ trans would sometimes move enough to change gears even with the OEM design ( rod attached to the trans ).

I really appreciate the information. I looked very hard all over the 2004R tranny housing and could find a place to attach the rod end you see in the pics. I wanted to do it like the factory but the 2004R is so fat in the area of the torque shaft that there is no way the shaft can be any longer than you see it in the pics. I'm pretty inventive but I do understand how it might be possible for the engine/trans to rotate under torque and possibly cause the shifter linkage to move. Lucky for me, I have no plans to race the car so in the worst case scenario the car would go into neutral and at least I would know what happened and put it back in gear.
I also realized that the engine doesn't move front to back very much at all even under load but it does rise up (it tries to rotate). This is why the factory mounted brace is mounted so that the tranny can rotate up or down and the plastic bushing will simply ride up and down on the torque shaft. The linkage that goes from the torque shaft to the trans shift selector is able to articulate in any direction (it doesn't mount solid). As such it should be able to move without pulling or pushing (front to back) on the selector lever. I can also manually move the engine (after loosening the drivers motor mount) once I have it all together and see if anything is affected.
Thanks for the input!!
Treblig

 

[Woods74]

My bad, didn't think you had to do cutting for a 200R4, thought it beat the purpose of any other swap. ops:

 

[Mopar to ya]

That's the only cut you have to make. I did nothing to reinforce my upper cross member. I will at some point go to a coil over set up and won't have the torsion bars twisting. As of right now, I have no problems, either on the street where I race the most or at the track.

 

[RedFish]

I really appreciate the information. I looked very hard all over the 2004R tranny housing and could find a place to attach the rod end you see in the pics. I wanted to do it like the factory but the 2004R is so fat in the area of the torque shaft that there is no way the shaft can be any longer than you see it in the pics. I'm pretty inventive but I do understand how it might be possible for the engine/trans to rotate under torque and possibly cause the shifter linkage to move. Lucky for me, I have no plans to race the car so in the worst case scenario the car would go into neutral and at least I would know what happened and put it back in gear.
I also realized that the engine doesn't move front to back very much at all even under load but it does rise up (it tries to rotate). This is why the factory mounted brace is mounted so that the tranny can rotate up or down and the plastic bushing will simply ride up and down on the torque shaft. The linkage that goes from the torque shaft to the trans shift selector is able to articulate in any direction (it doesn't mount solid). As such it should be able to move without pulling or pushing (front to back) on the selector lever. I can also manually move the engine (after loosening the drivers motor mount) once I have it all together and see if anything is affected.
Thanks for the input!!
Treblig

I tossed the OEM nylon bushing and forced a short piece of fuel hose over the rod. The rod remains captured but with more wiggle room. The hose just to prevent metal to metal noises.

 

[Treblig]

Here are the rest of the pics from yesterday. Here you can see that I have welded the rod end bracket onto the upper cross member. To ensure that I had the rod end correctly placed I climbed up into the car (on the rack) and tried shifting the linkage...it worked without any effort so I knew the rod end was not putting a bind on the torque shaft. Then I finished fitting, cutting and checking the lever. If you look close you might see the numerous holes I put the lever so I can pick the amount of "throw" I get when I shift. The bottom flat part of the lever should be parallel to the ground. Because this new lever is longer I used a heavier gauge metal strap to avoid any flexing.
Last pics are of the engine and the TCI flex plate with the crank adapter installed. I had already ran a thread chaser through each bolt hole and cleaned with electroclean to make sure I get a good bonding surface for the locktight. This is just a mock up as I still need to remove the bolts and lock tight them in place. Today I should be able to install the TCI adapter plate, paint all the bare metal and install the tranny. Also I need to check and make sure the pins that stick out of the back of the block are not protruding more than 1/4". I also plan to bend the pinch weld where ever there is a trans/ motor bolt. Need to weld lever in place also.

IMPORTANT....Don't forget to install the flex plate with the ID chamfer toward the crank!!! The red sticker you see in the pics was put on the wrong side of the flex plate by TCI. I would have put it on backwards if I hadn't seen the chamfer and called TCI about it.

MORE PICS LATER TODAY!!

Treblig

 

[jfreakofkorn]

nicely detailed thread .... keep it coming with the updates =)

 

[Treblig]

nicely detailed thread .... keep it coming with the updates =)

Thanks jfreakofkorn. I'll have another update in a hour or so.

treblig

 

[Treblig]

Worked my butt off all day and still couldn't get the tranny all the way in &%$#*%*^!!!!

I'll have to do this in two posts. I welded the new torque shaft lever in place. I also stuck the cross member spacer back into the cross member so everyone can see where it lives and how it gets in the way when you try and cut through the cross member. I removed the crank adapter bolts and reinstalled them with red locktight. Then I installed the adapter plate. If you read my previous posts you'll know NOT TO USE the larger tapered headed bolts in the two lower non-threaded engine block holes. TCI instructions say to use a larger bolt but the larger bolt keeps the tranny from bolting up flush. If you'll notice the TCI adapter plate has long studs that are used to bolt the tranny to the plate. These long studs make it impossible to install the tranny while the engine is still in the car.
The other day I wrote about how I had to check the engine block to tranny alignment pins to make sure they don't extend more than 1/4". In the pics you can see why. The adapter plate is 1/4" thick and usually the pins on the engine stick out more than 1/4". If they are longer than 1/4" they end up hitting the backside of the alignment pins that TCI put into the adapter for the 2004R (pics 5 & 6). I had to hammer the driver's side "in" about 1/8" to get it correct. Also in pic 5 & 6 you can see how the passenger exhaust pipe comes very close to the adapter. I knew this was going to be a problem and had cut extra metal off the adapter in the area where you see the silver (magic marker ) line. Last pics show adapter plate installed.


PS - I'll tell you why (in my next post, later tonight) I wasn't able to install the tranny today even though I had it up in there up against the adapter studs. Will make another post with the rest of the pics in a while.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

OK, as Paul Harvey used to say....Here's the rest of the story . The TCI adapter plate comes with very long studs to hold the tranny up against the adapter plate. These long studs force you to have to raise the tranny much higher in front during installation. If you installed the tranny on the ground like "Mopar To Ya" did it wouldn't be an issue. But when the engine is in the car it poses a list of other problems that are unforeseen. The long studs, the larger flexplate/ring gear, the custom dual exhaust and the BOP 2004R...these are some of the problems that kept me from finishing the install today.
First the long studs: I had already removed the distributor cap, unhooked the battery and lowered the engine until it was just touching the drag link. I also had to bend the pinch weld where the firewall attaches to the tunnel because the 2004R hits on either side (10 O'clock and 2 O'clock). No matter what I did I couldn't get the tranny high enough in front to align the studs. The 2004R has the extra BOP bolt pattern, as such, it comes with a high point at the top center of the housing used in Buick, Olds and Pontiac. This top center bolt is not used on the TCI adapter but the trans housing still has that 2" protrusion in the top center of the tranny that hits the firewall when you try to raise the it high enough to align the studs. So you either have to lower the back of the engine below the drag link or raise the front of the engine by removing the motor mounts. NOT SURE WHICH WORKS BEST???????????

Second: Chevy have larger flex plates/ring gear. This one hit me in the back of the head!! The larger ring gear makes/forces the starter further out (away from the engine). If you have 2 1/2" exhaust like I do the factory starter won't fit. After a trip to O'riellys and $100 later (97 Dakota starter). Problem solved!!

Custom exhaust: When they put in my exhaust I had a 904 trans in the car,. The 2004R is fatter and doesn't quite fit up between the pipes.

If I can get the engine angle down a little more it should go in there but those long studs really make it difficult.
If anyone can tell be the best way to get the engine to come down below the drag link OR raise the front enough to get the correct angle I would appreciate it!!

treblig

 

[Treblig]

After sleeping on it I might remove the purple plate and trim down the studs so I can get the tranny closer and be able to raise it higher. I'm also planning on loosening the motor mounts to see if I can get a little more engine angle. When cutting the studs you must be careful....they are externally splined studs pressed into the aluminum. If you don't put washers and nuts (tightened down good) against the plate the studs will start working loose as you cut them and you'll ruin everything. Also you'll need to taper the tips after you cut them the so you don't mash the first threads as you stab the tranny.

I'M REALLY SURPRISED THAT I DIDN'T GET ANY SUGGESTIONS???
Treblig

 

[RedFish]

You could pull one bolt from the idler arm and lower the draglink some by turning the steering knuckles. I have removed the radiator end of that upper hose and exhaust flanges to get more engine movement.

 

[Treblig]

You could pull one bolt from the idler arm and lower the draglink some by turning the steering knuckles. I have removed the radiator end of that upper hose and exhaust flanges to get more engine movement.

Those are some good ideas....didn't even think about the hoses!! I'll be back under the car in a couple of hours, first thing I've got to do is lower the tranny and see what I can do to make things easier.
Best part about it is that I KNOWE IT FITS IN THERE......it's just a matter of HOW??
treblig

 

[RedFish]

You might be surprised at how much engine tether is in that upper hose.
I saw the other thread stating exhaust already disconnected.
69 model will have the wafer or biscuit type mounts. There isn't as much movement in those as in the spool mounts but the spool type are failsafe. If you break or unbolt both the biscuit mounts and the engine will fall back, destroying the distributer or worse. Be careful.

 

[Treblig]

You might be surprised at how much engine tether is in that upper hose.
I saw the other thread stating exhaust already disconnected.
69 model will have the wafer or biscuit type mounts. There isn't as much movement in those as in the spool mounts but the spool type are failsafe. If you break or unbolt both the biscuit mounts and the engine will fall back, destroying the distributer or worse. Be careful.

Thanks Redfish. I have a bottle jack under the engine pan (with a large piece of thick wood in between). Unless I unhook the drag ling the engine can't move down much more at all, it's almost completely resting on the drag link right now. I also have a direct view of the distributor (the cap is off) from underneath as I lower the block. I'll loosen the mounts this morning...only loosen to see if it helps. If the engine drops all the way onto the drag link I'll disconnect the drag link next. But I'll be sure to check the hoses, the top of the fan, and the distributor.

treblig

 

[Woods74]

Slam n' jam!

 

[Treblig]

Slam n' jam!

I Slammed and Jammed today...even kicked some butt!! Got the tranny in and have a ton of information and two tons of pictures. Not sure where to start but first I'll show pics of the install and then make another post with more pics of the problems and solutions. Once I figured everything out it almost fell in place. Once I got the tranny past a certain point it lined up and all the studs engaged. When I raised the back end of the tranny I found some places that made contact with the housing. It wasn't a big deal because I had cut everything based on the pics that "Mopar To Ya" had posted so all I could do was estimate where the cuts needed to be. But once you get it hooked up to the engine you can easily see the spots that need a little more massaging (cutting/trimming).

When you're looking at the pics keep in mind that the home made lower cross member and trans mount brackets were made with extra material because I wasn't exactly sure where the mount stud would end up. So there is material that I still need to remove to make it look nice. Will have pics of the complete trans mount tomorrow.

 

[Woods74]

Sucker fits right up in there! Gonna paint it all before all said and done?

 

[Treblig]

Sucker fits right up in there! Gonna paint it all before all said and done?

My plan is to paint all the bare metal. But to get back to the problems during install...when I removed the tranny (for the third/forth time) I found the culprit. I was half wrong about the BOP bolt pattern. The tranny housing does have two bolt patterns but it doesn't have a bolt on the top center of the housing like I thought. It has two bolt holes that protrude way above the Chevy bolts near the top (SEE PICS). These two extra protrusions stick up quite a bit and it was these two parts of the housing that was hitting the top of the firewall. They were keeping the housing from going high enough to line up the rest of the holes. These protrusions also have reinforcement webs to support the upper bolts on BOP. I also cut the webs off because they can also hit the upper tunnel and keep the tranny from getting high enough to align properly.
In my case the other problem was the dual exhaust pipes. On the passenger's side the pipe passed so close to the 2004R that it actually kept it from moving far enough to the right. I couldn't move the pipe (has a cross over pipe) and my exhaust was made all in one piece, no connections. So I got the sawsall and cut the pipe. Now that I have the tranny where it needs to be I will re-weld the pipe in the correct position in case I ever have to remove the tranny.
In the last pic (if you look real close) you can see one other small problem. The area that I cut out of the upper cross member on the driver's side. I posted pics of that area already. But in the last pic you might be able to see that the tranny housing just barely touches the edge of the place I cut. I didn't know exactly how much to cut and I didn't want to cut more than necessary. Either way, if you ever do try this all you have to do is lower the tranny and cut a little more. With the 1/8" plate I installed between the upper cross member and the floor I'm not too worried about any weakness from the cutting. You can see the blue tape I had covering the speedometer connection on the left side of the tranny and just to the left of the blue tape you can see a silver (magic marker) arrow (looks like a "V"), anyway this is the area that needed extra cutting. I'll try and point out this area tomorrow and take a good pic.
I also had to trim off the extra ear off the housing on the passenger's side. Not sure what this was used for but it's a large piece of aluminum that sticks out on that side. It has a hole in it as if it was used to support an accessory on the trans. I had no use for it and it was hitting the passenger's side of the upper cross member.
Tomorrow I plan to bolt up the torque converter, install the two upper bolt on the tranny housing (they're hard to get to), make the trans fluid lines to the radiator then to the extra cooler in front. Finish torqueing down the starter, paint, hook up the speedo and route the cable, and make the connection between the tranny shift selector to the lever on the torque shaft. And maybe work on the drive shaft length.

PS - The transmission angle came out real close to 3 degrees DOWN.

Treblig

 

[RedFish]

and a dipstick tube. Are we havin' fun yet ?
Lookin' good though.

 

[Treblig]

yes, a drip stick tube and a whole bunch of transmission fluid!!!

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Today was very productive and I also found another small problem. If you've been reading all my posts from the beginning you remember I had to trim off a good sized piece of tranny housing on the passenger's side so the it wouldn't interfere with the down pipe on that side. Of course I had only estimated and by looking at and measuring my Barracuda I cut the amount I thought I needed to cut. As it turns out, now that the tranny is installed, I didn't cut enough. In the first pic I'll show what I cut off the first time(months ago). The second pic shows what I had to cut now that it's in the car so that the exhaust can go back in (remember I had to remove the passenger's side exhaust pipe to get the tranny in). After removing this last piece the exhaust went in with no problem.
Now on the driver's side, well that's another story.........I hooked up the exhaust no problem but then I couldn't get the new starter in. With 2 1/2" pipes there's not enough room, even for the small 97 Dakota starter!!! I'll probably put a good size dent in the pipe just to get the car going then order the elongated 2 1/2" (oblong) pipe to replace that section off pipe so I don't lose any power/flow.

Next I tackled the shifter linkage. It wasn't hard but it took some time. I had already drilled three holes in the new torque shaft lever because I wasn't sure exactly how much "throw" I needed to make the 2004R catch all the gears properly. I used the original Chevy trans selector lever and welded a heavy piece of metal (properly shaped) to the original lever so I could find the correct location for the hole. If you check out the pics you can see how I attached a piece of sheet metal (white piece of pointed metal in pic # 3) to the exhaust pipe and used the metal piece to locate the one hole in the lever. Then I shifted the console handle from "PARK" to "DRIVE" to see how much travel I got out of the first hole. I used this procedure for all the holes to get the amount of travel. After I knew how far each hole moved form "P" to "D" I wrote it down for reference. Then I went to the new trans selector lever (pic # 4 and 5). I used a magic marker to mark a spot on the new lever. Then I held a scale next to the lever to see how far that spot moved when I shifted the tranny from "P" to "D". The first and second spot I marked were close and the third spot was perfect. Using the third spot the trans selector lever moved exactly as far (from "P" to "D") as the third hole in the torque shaft lever. I removed the selector lever and drilled a hole in the correct spot then I hooked up the shifter and shifted from gear to gear and it worked perfectly. Lock in park, Neutral in Neutral, Drive in Drive!!!
Now I know some of you are probably saying," The console shifter only had three gears and the 2004R has 4 gears!!!" My answer would be, "YES". But in all the years I've been alive I've only had to use low gear (in an automatic) a handful of times. I can live without low gear for a few months because I don't plan on racing, well that's not completely true but...I don't plan on manually shifting gears. Later on I'll remove the console and cut another notch in the shifter mechanism. Yes, I've already checked mine out and there's plenty of room for another notch.

The last 4 or five pics show close ups of the two places that the housing hits on either side of the upper cross member. On the driver's side there's a silver arrow showing the place where you have to remove extra metal beyond what I removed this first time. On the Passenger's side you can see how I had to trim off that ear that sticks out on that side. Everything is clear now and the housing doesn't touch anywhere, I have at least 1/8" clearance everywhere.

Ran out of slots for pics so I'll post more later tonight. Got a ton of pics and although some people might say I'm posting too many pics I say...."I only wish "Mopar To Ya" had posted more pics from more angles. I'm not complaining but I was able to get the tranny installed pretty easily because of the pics Mopar To Ya posted, but more would have been better.
Thanks, MOPARTOYA!!!
LOTS MORE LATER TONIGHT!!!
treblig

 

[Treblig]

I forgot one very important item.
On November 3rd 2013 "Trogdoor" started this thread with the question "Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?"
I'm happy to say, 7 months later...The answer is YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With a few modifications.

treblig

 

[Treblig]

Ok, finally had time to post more pics and info. Pics show the completely finished home made transmission mount. Pics of the tail shaft area with trans mount in place, if you look close you can see the speedo cable in place. I still have a little work left with routing the speedo cable. If you'll remember reading that I already disconnected the 904 Neutral Safety/Reverse Light wiring and rerouted it to the console by using a pre '69 reverse light console switch and a home made Neutral Safety. You also get a clear shot of the passenger's side exhaust tunnel. After I cut the last piece of tranny housing I had no problem getting the pipe to fit. There's a close up of the trans selector lever with the numerous black dots from when I was trying to get the best shifting distance and then the hole in the perfect place. Remember that the rod that goes from the torque shaft lever to the trans selector lever should be parallel to the ground and run parallel to the longitudinal axis of the car (front to back). I had to put a dog leg in the rod to get it to run parallel to the ground.....it shifts perfect!!

Ran out of room for pics and it's time to get some rest but I should be able to hit it again tomorrow.........QUESTIONS???


treblig